Casualty reports?

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Zophar
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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Zophar » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:34 am

Snoopy wrote:Oh sure, there were times when one of made mistakes/freezes/whatever you want to call it. But all of them at once? What are the odds?
Lets look at these individually; Cassie has never been the quickest draw, her intelligence lies in people and motives, rather than subterfuge. Rachel has always been a little more combative and forthright, but she usually comes up with something. When she's on her own. When she's with the others, she leaves the quick thinking to Jake and Marco, because she knows that's what they do best. As for Jake, he said he was going to leave Marco in charge of this mission. In fact, while they are in the car, we see Marco calling the shots and Jake staying quiet. So all that needed to happen was Marco slip. And he did. A simple mistake.

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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Snoopy » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:47 am

Oh, come on. Sure, Marco slipping may have been responsible for the first, oh, two seconds of delay. But they all knew what was on the line. Surely, after seeing that Marco had stalled, Jake could have piped up with something. Or Rachel. Even Cassie could have come up with an explanation.

And you say that at least Jake and Rachel were capable of coming up with a response, right? Well then, why didn't they? And don't give me this "Jake was letting Marco be in charge" garbage. It's not like the Animorphs are a team of well-trained soldiers that only do what they're told. They improvise. They plan on the fly. They pull strategies together at the last minute. Don't tell me Jake and Rachel were just "letting Marco be in charge", therefore neither of them could come up with a decent answer to cover up where Marco slipped. That's hogwash.
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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Zophar » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:10 am

Snoopy wrote:Oh sure, there were times when one of made mistakes/freezes/whatever you want to call it. But all of them at once? What are the odds?
Firstly, let us establish that now it is not a question of the ghostwriters failure, but why the AMS failed to come up with an excuse for the discrepancy.
Snoopy wrote:don't give me this "Jake was letting Marco be in charge" garbage.
Did he not say that he would let Marco be in charge, call the shots? That sonds like a turnover of command, and when that happens, you must show confidence in your decision, something that Jake learned throughout the series.
Snoopy wrote:It's not like the Animorphs are a team of well-trained soldiers

Any, and I mean any, person of knowledge in any field will tell you that 1 day of experience is worth 10 days of training. They may not have been trained in guerrilla war, but they learned fast. They improvise. They plan on the fly. They pull strategies together at the last minute. And they make mistakes, because as you say,
Snoopy wrote:It's not like the Animorphs are a team of well-trained soldiers


And if you remember, Rachel was still willing to follow Marco's orders after she thought he had gotten Cassie and Jake killed. She deferred to him.

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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Snoopy » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:15 am

Zophar wrote:Firstly, let us establish that now it is not a question of the ghostwriters failure, but why the AMS failed to come up with an excuse for the discrepancy.
Uh, I still disagree with that. I think the ghost's messing up is the only possible explanation.
Zophar wrote:
Snoopy wrote: don't give me this "Jake was letting Marco be in charge" garbage.
Did he not say that he would let Marco be in charge, call the shots? That sonds like a turnover of command, and when that happens, you must show confidence in your decision, something that Jake learned throughout the series.
Snoopy wrote: It's not like the Animorphs are a team of well-trained soldiers
Any, and I mean any, person of knowledge in any field will tell you that 1 day of experience is worth 10 days of training. They may not have been trained in guerrilla war, but they learned fast. They improvise. They plan on the fly. They pull strategies together at the last minute. And they make mistakes, because as you say,
Snoopy wrote: It's not like the Animorphs are a team of well-trained soldiers

And if you remember, Rachel was still willing to follow Marco's orders after she thought he had gotten Cassie and Jake killed. She deferred to him.
You're kind of missing my point. Yes, Marco was in charge. I'm not contesting that. My point is that they're always pulling each other's butt's out of the fire. Think about how many times the Animorphs made up for Jake's mistakes, even when Jake was supposed to be in charge. Why couldn't they have done the same for Marco? Jake and Rachel surely must have seen the danger, why didn't they do something about it?
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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Zophar » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:24 am

Snoopy wrote: You're kind of missing my point. Yes, Marco was in charge. I'm not contesting that. My point is that they're always pulling each other's butt's out of the fire. Think about how many times the Animorphs made up for Jake's mistakes.
So then it would seem that the odds were in favor of an eventual failure.

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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Snoopy » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:32 am

Zophar wrote:
Snoopy wrote: You're kind of missing my point. Yes, Marco was in charge. I'm not contesting that. My point is that they're always pulling each other's butt's out of the fire. Think about how many times the Animorphs made up for Jake's mistakes.
So then it would seem that the odds were in favor of an eventual failure.
Even if you look at it from a purely statistical standpoint, the odds that they would fail at that time are very low. It was a relatively low-stress situation. There was an obvious solution. There were four different people there to come up with a way out. The odds that they should fail here are much less than the odds that they should fail in many other situations. Think how many times the fate of all the Animorphs rested on just one person. The books are full of situations like these. And yet, in these high-stress situations, they always come through. Why then, in this relatively low-stress situation, would four of them fail at exactly the same moment?
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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Zophar » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:39 am

Hmmm... This sounds familiar
Zophar wrote: Lets look at these individually; Cassie has never been the quickest draw, her intelligence lies in people and motives, rather than subterfuge. Rachel has always been a little more combative and forthright, but she usually comes up with something. When she's on her own. When she's with the others, she leaves the quick thinking to Jake and Marco, because she knows that's what they do best. As for Jake, he said he was going to leave Marco in charge of this mission. In fact, while they are in the car, we see Marco calling the shots and Jake staying quiet. So all that needed to happen was Marco slip. And he did. A simple mistake.
Oh, yes, I already answered it.

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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Snoopy » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:23 am

I get the strange feeling we're going around in circles. If they were all strictly trained soldiers who never thought outside the box, and never did anything on their own initiative, but only followed orders like robots, you might have a case. But that's just not the Animorphs. Jake and Rachel at least should have seen that Marco had frozen up, and jumped in with a response. That's what they did a hundred other times.
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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by Cyberhamon » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:12 pm

Snoopy wrote:I get the strange feeling we're going around in circles. If they were all strictly trained soldiers who never thought outside the box, and never did anything on their own initiative, but only followed orders like robots, you might have a case. But that's just not the Animorphs. Jake and Rachel at least should have seen that Marco had frozen up, and jumped in with a response. That's what they did a hundred other times.
Plus, even real soldiers would respond properly if the mission was on the line, which it clearly was. They do look out for each other, and they have backed each other up in almost every other book in the series, no matter who was in charge. Jake and Rachel would have come up with something. You never just let a life-threatening situation unfold simply because you weren't in charge. That's just plain stupid, and the AMS are not stupid. This is a clear case of Ghostwriters Screwing Up Royally. And no matter how much you say the evidence is on your side Zophar, it is on Snoop's side. As am I.
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Re: Casualty reports?

Post by capnnerefir » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:34 pm

I generally try to stay out of other people's arguments, but I will say this. Zophar is infinitely more qualified to determine how professional soldiers would act than either Snoopy or Cyberhamon. If he says that professional soldiers would act in a certain way, that is his professional diagnosis and not the opinion of a 16-year-old kid (no offense) who has had no military experience.