Immigration

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BabelFish42
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Immigration

Post by BabelFish42 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:47 pm

So... I'm curious what people think about the immigration debate. (I'm thinking specifically of the American one, but that doesn't mean the discussion has to be limited to that one.) I saw there's no thread about it yet. Maybe it's an uncomfortable topic. But it's also an important one, especially with a presidential election coming up.

If you're not too familiar with the topic, here's a couple websites that try to summarize the views of people on both sides:

http://immigration.procon.org/view.reso ... D=000842#2

http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=7412

Just as a reminder - I know this is a hot button issue for a lot of people, but please be respectful in your comments. Hopefully that goes without saying.
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Re: Immigration

Post by Menno » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:53 pm

I think it's ridiculous how some people think that some people have more of a right to live in America, just because they were lucky enough to be born here. We do all this posturing and grandstanding about how, in our country, your success is supposedly determined by your actions and choices. And yet we automatically exclude people just because they, through absolutely no choice of their own, happened to be born in a different country.

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BabelFish42
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Re: Immigration

Post by BabelFish42 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:12 pm

Menno wrote:I think it's ridiculous how some people think that some people have more of a right to live in America, just because they were lucky enough to be born here. We do all this posturing and grandstanding about how, in our country, your success is supposedly determined by your actions and choices. And yet we automatically exclude people just because they, through absolutely no choice of their own, happened to be born in a different country.
So are you in favor of open borders? Idealistically, I love the thought of implementing that policy, but practically, I have some concerns. For instance, in order for open borders to work, I think we’d have to either dismantle a lot of our social welfare programs, or else limit them to citizens and/or long term residents.

A lot of Americans assume that it’s our right to control who comes in and out of our country… but is it really? Or is freedom of movement a fundamental human right? Personally, I think it's fine to limit the movement of criminals/terrorists, but otherwise, I agree with this guy:
Phillippe Legrain wrote: I think freedom of movement is one of the most basic human rights, as anyone who is denied it can confirm. It is abhorrent that the rich and the educated are allowed to circulate around the world more or less freely, while the poor are not — causing, in effect, a form of global apartheid.

(Here's his article: http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/10/17/ ... /#comments)


Plus, from an economic standpoint, allowing the free movement of capital and labor creates a healthier, more robust economy, and studies (like this one: http://www.nber.org/papers/w11672) have shown that immigrants do have a positive overall impact on our economy. From both an ethical and a financial standpoint, I think you can make a very strong case for open borders.

Even if we didn’t get rid of all our immigration controls, we could at least reform the immigration process to make it much easier and faster than it currently is. I hear a lot of people say we shouldn’t be lenient with undocumented immigrants because that wouldn’t be fair to all the people who were waiting in line; they say undocumented people should’ve waited their turn like everyone else. But the system really isn’t that simple. Our current immigration policies make it almost impossible for people of low socioeconomic status to immigrate here; “getting in line” is just not an option for everyone. There are all kinds of fees and bureaucratic hurdles you have to jump through that essentially make (legal) immigration impossible for the people who are most desperate to come here. People who, like Menno pointed out, did absolutely nothing wrong, but simply had the bad luck to be born into a poor family living in a place with no free secondary education and very few decent-paying jobs.
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Re: Immigration

Post by BSerAkafanofblake » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:25 pm

my mom says the president is doing this so the immigrants will vote for him.
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Re: Immigration

Post by xenawarriorprincess » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:17 pm

I think its kind of ridiculous when Americans complain about immigrants stealing jobs because, to be honest, immigrants work 3 times harder than any american with less pay than any american. They should be welcomed into the country without people complaining.
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Re: Immigration

Post by BabelFish42 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:11 pm

xenawarriorprincess wrote:I think its kind of ridiculous when Americans complain about immigrants stealing jobs because, to be honest, immigrants work 3 times harder than any american with less pay than any american.
True that. No benefits or vacation days either. Though that's exactly the argument anti-immigration people make - immigrants get employed, instead of other Americans, because they're willing to work long hours in crappy conditions for less pay. (Not my argument, just what other people would say in response to your argument.)

Hptwiani, what are you referring to? Are you talking about Obama halting the deportation of undocumented immigrants who came to the US before the age of 16 and allowing them certain rights? Of course that was a political move aimed at getting more votes. But just because it was political doesn't mean it wasn't right. Pretty much everything politicians do is done, at least partially, to get more people to vote for them. So that's kind of a silly criticism to make. (No offense to your mom.)
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Re: Immigration

Post by The_Brigadier » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:22 am

As the child of immigrants, I'm unsurprisingly biased on the issue. To be prefectly honest, I think immigrants, much like in the Gilded Era, are being used as scapegoats. Why? Well their "damage" is clearly being hyperbolized and while there has been legislatation created to force out illegal immigrants, this came after a long time of complaints, leading me to believe that the current legislation was more used as a band-aid to keep Americans quiet.

Also, as a culture, xenophobia is a part of the American culture (though many would deny it). It began when the Spainards set up their first settlement in 1565, it continued after when the English staked their claims in the Virginia Territory, and it contiunes to this day. I suppose that much of the feeling Americans get today against immigrants is something they were taught by their parents: "Those damn foreigners!"
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Re: Immigration

Post by BSerAkafanofblake » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:52 pm

BabelFish42 wrote:
xenawarriorprincess wrote:I think its kind of ridiculous when Americans complain about immigrants stealing jobs because, to be honest, immigrants work 3 times harder than any american with less pay than any american.
.)
. (No offense to your mom.)
I'll try to remember to tell her that.
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Re: Immigration

Post by BabelFish42 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:35 pm

The_Brigadier wrote:As the child of immigrants, I'm unsurprisingly biased on the issue. To be prefectly honest, I think immigrants, much like in the Gilded Era, are being used as scapegoats.
I agree. Though I'm definitely biased too. I live in a border town, so almost everyone I know is a first or second generation immigrant.
The_Brigadier wrote: Also, as a culture, xenophobia is a part of the American culture (though many would deny it).
If you pay any attention to the news, and the comments people make, I don't see how you could NOT see that xenophobia is still a huge part of our culture.
The_Brigadier wrote: I suppose that much of the feeling Americans get today against immigrants is something they were taught by their parents: "Those damn foreigners!"
Foreigners, or in this case immigrants, are a classic example of the Other - people think, "they're not us, they're not like us, we don't understand them or trust them," so they're the one of the groups most likely to be blamed when something goes wrong.
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Re: Immigration

Post by Tobias_Marco » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:54 am

<As a general rule I don't like putting all the blame on any one group, first of all you have to have way too many facts defining your group to get 100% of the blame on this one group. Secondly, from a genetic stand point we are all 99.99% the same.>
<The only time I try to put a lot of blame on any one group, and think they should be looked down on is when they made a choice to do something, in this case murderers and sex offenders. However CLEARLY all murderers aren't immigrants, and not all immigrants are murderers.>
<Yes there are people coming over the border illegally, yes I think they should come here legally or not at all. Yes I can understand that for every one illegal immigrant that is one, or maybe even two or three natives that can't get a job.>
<I wish there was a way to say that everyone on Earth who was over 18 Earth years of age could have a good job and bring home enough money to pay all of their bills and still have a little bit to put away into savings.>
<However I'm not sure what the answer to any of this is. Some people say we just need to build a really big wall along the border, however you can be sure that if we do some people are going to start selling ladders one foot taller than the wall we put up.>
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