how to void the Right-Left divide?

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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:48 pm

<I would point out that there is already a thread to talk about Pokémon.>
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by Current » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:43 pm

Yeah, we know. It just so happens that it's a common derail subject (see the favourite battle-morph thread for example).
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by TF. » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:11 pm

I think you can probably blame me for that, in almost every thread it's happened. ;)
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by The_Brigadier » Wed May 04, 2011 6:43 pm

Voiding the Left-RIght divide? I do not find that possible unless a nation has a single party/no-party system. There will always be people who want to try out new, different ideas, and there will always be those who want to stick to tradition. Each has its benefits and faults at certain times and in situations. It is importent to balance the Left and the Right so that the people aren't stuck in a backwards and archaic bog (take China's history for example), but not heedlessly trying out new and ineffective ideas just because they sound cool (try the Union of Soviet Socailist Republics).
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by Current » Fri May 06, 2011 10:30 am

There will always be people who try new things and people who don't, but it's debatable if that's the best way to draw the boundary. After all, it's entirely possible to be progressive on some issues and conservative (or regressive) on others. The question is, I'd think, what stances you usually find together. If generally people aren't universal progressives or universal conservatives, then that tells you you should be drawing the boundary in some other way.

And there's the related problem: whether you are someone who wants something new or not, is time-dependent. Suppose you prefer new policy B vs old policy A. Suppose you win. Now that policy B has ceased to be the "new idea" and is "the way things are", you are a conservative on that particular point (and the conservatives are now regressive, or possibly even progressive if they want to try something similar but different to the old thing). Which is why, I'd say, it makes little sense to group people exclusively by the newness or oldness of their ideas, and it's better to do so by the specific points in them.

Then again, left-right nowadays is more about specific economic positions than whether they are new or not.
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by The_Brigadier » Sat May 07, 2011 10:49 am

left-right nowadays is more about specific economic positions than whether they are new or not.
A little of both. In the eighteenth century, Adam Smith released a something called The Wealth of Nations. In his book, Smith stated that government had no place in the affairs of the economy, and should practice laissez-faire (let it be) in all buisnesses. And thus, the foundation for Capitalism was born. At the current time, the main economic system of England, France, Portugal, and Spain was mercantilism, which believed that colonies only existed as a source of resources, trade, and wealth for the mother country. Conservatives, the Mercantilists, at the time completely rejected the veiws of the Liberals, the Capitalists, saying that such a system would cause economies to crash because people would be working only for their self-interests, not the good of the nation. Eventually, Capitalism triumphed.

Nowadays, if you tell a Conservative to abandon Capitalism, s/he'll laugh. But if you also tell that same Conservative to consider Socialism or Communism, s/he'll probably scoff (here's looking at you, Snoopy! :D). I still believe that newness and oldness in ideas determines the party.

But I did just prove your Point B:
And there's the related problem: whether you are someone who wants something new or not, is time-dependent. Suppose you prefer new policy B vs old policy A. Suppose you win. Now that policy B has ceased to be the "new idea" and is "the way things are", you are a conservative on that particular point (and the conservatives are now regressive, or possibly even progressive if they want to try something similar but different to the old thing).
You're so insightful, Current! :) Did you/are you study(ing) government?
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by Current » Sat May 07, 2011 11:57 am

AlbinoBlackSheep wrote:
left-right nowadays is more about specific economic positions than whether they are new or not.
A little of both. In the eighteenth century, Adam Smith released a something called The Wealth of Nations. In his book, Smith stated that government had no place in the affairs of the economy, and should practice laissez-faire (let it be) in all buisnesses. And thus, the foundation for Capitalism was born. At the current time, the main economic system of England, France, Portugal, and Spain was mercantilism, which believed that colonies only existed as a source of resources, trade, and wealth for the mother country. Conservatives, the Mercantilists, at the time completely rejected the veiws of the Liberals, the Capitalists, saying that such a system would cause economies to crash because people would be working only for their self-interests, not the good of the nation. Eventually, Capitalism triumphed.
All of which is true ( as far as I know) but I don't see where you're going with this.
Nowadays, if you tell a Conservative to abandon Capitalism, s/he'll laugh. But if you also tell that same Conservative to consider Socialism or Communism, s/he'll probably scoff (here's looking at you, Snoopy! :D). I still believe that newness and oldness in ideas determines the party.
To an extent, certainly. But, look at (for example) abortion in the US, which if I recall correctly has been legal for some 30-40 years. The ones trying to impose new regulations are the Republicans, the ones who want to keep them as they are are the Democrats.
If all there was to left-right was newness vs oldness, you'd expect the opposite.
But I did just prove your Point B:
And there's the related problem: whether you are someone who wants something new or not, is time-dependent. Suppose you prefer new policy B vs old policy A. Suppose you win. Now that policy B has ceased to be the "new idea" and is "the way things are", you are a conservative on that particular point (and the conservatives are now regressive, or possibly even progressive if they want to try something similar but different to the old thing).
You're so insightful, Current! :) Did you/are you study(ing) government?
Not with any depth. I had one class in college I barely passed (and hated every second of), and I only took it because it's mandatory for everyone no matter what they're actually studying.
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by The_Brigadier » Sat May 07, 2011 2:16 pm

AlbinoBlackSheep wrote:
left-right nowadays is more about specific economic positions than whether they are new or not.

A little of both. In the eighteenth century, Adam Smith released a something called The Wealth of Nations. In his book, Smith stated that government had no place in the affairs of the economy, and should practice laissez-faire (let it be) in all buisnesses. And thus, the foundation for Capitalism was born. At the current time, the main economic system of England, France, Portugal, and Spain was mercantilism, which believed that colonies only existed as a source of resources, trade, and wealth for the mother country. Conservatives, the Mercantilists, at the time completely rejected the veiws of the Liberals, the Capitalists, saying that such a system would cause economies to crash because people would be working only for their self-interests, not the good of the nation. Eventually, Capitalism triumphed.
All of which is true ( as far as I know) but I don't see where you're going with this.
Oh whoops! ^_^; I meant to illustrate that Conservatives are based on both tradition, and their economic policy. The Mercantilists were Conservative because they rejected Capitalism, and because they believed solely on the Mercantilist tradition. Today's Conservatives are Conservative because they reject new economic systems in the Capitalist tradition.
But, look at (for example) abortion in the US, which if I recall correctly has been legal for some 30-40 years. The ones trying to impose new regulations are the Republicans, the ones who want to keep them as they are are the Democrats.
Actually, Republicans want to get rid of Abortion because they veiw the practice as murder. (Most) Democrats want to leave the Abortion clinics open for use.
I had one class in college I barely passed (and hated every second of), and I only took it because it's mandatory for everyone no matter what they're actually studying.
Aw, really? I love studying Government! I can't wait to take the AP Government class next year.
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by Current » Sat May 07, 2011 3:46 pm

AlbinoBlackSheep wrote:
AlbinoBlackSheep wrote:
left-right nowadays is more about specific economic positions than whether they are new or not.

A little of both. In the eighteenth century, Adam Smith released a something called The Wealth of Nations. In his book, Smith stated that government had no place in the affairs of the economy, and should practice laissez-faire (let it be) in all buisnesses. And thus, the foundation for Capitalism was born. At the current time, the main economic system of England, France, Portugal, and Spain was mercantilism, which believed that colonies only existed as a source of resources, trade, and wealth for the mother country. Conservatives, the Mercantilists, at the time completely rejected the veiws of the Liberals, the Capitalists, saying that such a system would cause economies to crash because people would be working only for their self-interests, not the good of the nation. Eventually, Capitalism triumphed.
All of which is true ( as far as I know) but I don't see where you're going with this.
Oh whoops! ^_^; I meant to illustrate that Conservatives are based on both tradition, and their economic policy. The Mercantilists were Conservative because they rejected Capitalism, and because they believed solely on the Mercantilist tradition. Today's Conservatives are Conservative because they reject new economic systems in the Capitalist tradition.
I see, thanks for clarifying.
But, look at (for example) abortion in the US, which if I recall correctly has been legal for some 30-40 years. The ones trying to impose new regulations are the Republicans, the ones who want to keep them as they are are the Democrats.
Actually, Republicans want to get rid of Abortion because they veiw the practice as murder. (Most) Democrats want to leave the Abortion clinics open for use.
Which is exactly my point. The right-wing party is proposing new legislation (banning abortions after a given point, etc.), whereas the party to the left of them are trying to keep things as they are. Implying you can't predict the party policy solely by asking yourself "is this new or is this old?"
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Re: how to void the Right-Left divide?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:50 am

<I just want to have a job where I CAN work hard enough to get above the poverty line! Is that too much to ask?>
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