Abortion

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What do you think of Abortion?

Its murder no matter which way you look at it
30
46%
Its only murder if it has fully developed
21
32%
There is nothing wrong with it it isn't truly alive
14
22%
 
Total votes: 65

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Re: Abortion

Post by David_James83 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:31 pm

Abortion is cold blooded murder! No If or buts.

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SnnowW
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Re: Abortion

Post by SnnowW » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:54 pm

For this kind of question, I don't know if there's a good answer.
When the girl is raped, she can't keep the baby and think everyday to this.
But when a woman is working, ans she doesn't want the baby because of her carrier, it's just scandalous.

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Re: Abortion

Post by saephirayew » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:30 am

I believe it should be between the doctor and the woman what decision she makes, and I believe abortions should be legal and accessible for those who decide that it is the right decision. The way I see it, just because they are available does not mean that will automatically become everyone's first choice of preventing motherhood. If you would rather give your baby up for adoption, go for it. Nobody is making YOU take advantage of abortions.

I think it's odd how people (for example The_Brigadier) are adamant about adoption, because of all the children being shuffled around foster homes and whatnot. And then there are people saying that you should put your baby up instead of aborting it because someone wants it. Which is it? There's a deficiency of adoptable kids, or a plethora? In the case of the former, legalized abortions would help remedy the situation.

I am 19. The week after I graduated high school last year, I had sex with somebody. I was on the pill. He used a condom. Before we had had sex, we discussed the possibility, mostly joking (because I was on the pill and we used a condom, remember?), and I am pro-choice and he pro-life (except rapes, incest, ect *which I find to be a more strict definition of pro-choice, not pro-life*). I suggested aborting because I wanted to finish school. Guess what? Right after college started, I discovered I was pregnant. I was not with this somebody at the time, so the following weekend I drove down to tell him. The second he saw the blue lines, he suggested I head to the local clinic. I suggested we think on it a few days. I stayed with him for a week. We decided to keep the fetus that is now my Lillian. It was my CHOICE to keep her, and had I not it would have been my choice to abort her. I still wonder how it would be different if I had. I would still be in school, not a stay-at-home mom.. I wouldn't be with the love of my life. I would be able to experience the world on my own, instead of highschool/living with parents ---> stay-at-home mom/living with husband. I know I would have survived the mental anguish, because I'd had a miscarriage a year earlier. I survived that, after a few months.

It would have been something different, and since we can never really know what could have been, I try to push my second thoughts out of my mind.

I guess this ended up being more of a personal story than anything, but I know that having the CHOICE to abort was important. If I had been forced to have her , I would probably resent her.

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Re: Abortion

Post by Kes » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:10 am

Kind of surprised that this was one of the topics listed as a first five post. I see that the last post was kind of old, but I kind of feel the need to jump in because the poll options are kind of gross. I would go with the last option, but of course it's alive. I feel like no one is fully objecting to that.

However, it's not autonomous. And more important, the fetus's lack of autonomy can only be supported by someone else's body. Since no one is legally obligated to donate kidneys, or even donate blood, it's unfair to expect a person to donate their uterus for nine months without constant consent. Even if the fetus were a legal person, it would not have the right to someone else's body. Pregnancy isn't always easy and can cause a variety of medical problems, some temporary, some permanent, some minor, some life changing.

It's important to understand in this "debate" that the pro-choice side isn't advocating everyone get or even consider an abortion, just that it is available and safe for anyone who needs or wants one. This leads to fewer deaths from complications from unsafe, illegal abortions.

It's also important to realize that there is a living legal person involved. This person may have preexisting medical conditions that make it unsafe to carry a pregnancy. Over half the people who get abortions already have children that need their time, emotional and financial support. Some people just don't want to be pregnant, and that's okay too. Remember, adoption is an alternative to parenthood, abortion is an alternative to pregnancy.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Tobias_Marco » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:03 pm

<I haven't read all all the posts made to this topic, however there are some cases that are to be considered.>
Female #1 is a teenager, and she thought it would be fun to have sex, even if it 'was just one time' and she got pregnant.
Female #2 was walking along minding her own business when she was raped.
Female #3 is married and has gotten pregnant, however has been told that if she has the baby she will die, and the doctor can't even promise that the baby will live.
Female #4 is a married woman living in China, local laws say that you can only have so many children, and boys are preferred over girls, and the doctor says that she is having a girl.
Female #5 wants to have children someday, yet not right now because the timing isn't right for one reason or another.

<Please note that I called them 'females' not 'girls' or 'women' or any other term that you could use. If a woman gives birth to a baby girl, that girl is a female, if she grows up to be a 2082 year old super-great-great-grandmother, than she is still a female. It doesn't matter if she is a doctor, a lawyer, a nun, a teacher, a cop, a fire fighter, a member of the military, or any other job you can think of, or even one you can't think of, she is still a female.>

<Many people will say that each of these females have a different right to an abortion then the others. Still others will say that it is wrong any way you look at it.>

<The first thing that we should think about is that there are pills that a female can take to prevent, or at least reduce the odds of, her getting pregnant, secondly the guy can wear a condom, and thirdly there is 'the morning after pill' that can be taken. All of these things working together will give you about a 99.999% chance of not getting pregnant. Given current medical science the only way to improve your odds of not getting pregnant is to not have sex at all.>
<However that doesn't help Female #2, she may have never had sex before, it wasn't her choice to be raped, and for the sake of it, lets say that she was dressed in a way that was not suggestive at all.>
<Quick note: If anyone is ever raped I do not believe it is there fault, they were not asking for it, I don't care what they were wearing, unless of course they were wearing a sign that said 'please rape me', then its a whole different talk.>
<My point is that if a female is 'dressed like a slut' then they still aren't asking for it.>
<Anyway, getting back to Female #2, it is very sad that she was raped, yet she can still take the morning after pill.>
<Female #1 just wanted to have sex for the sake of it, and most people who say 'no' to abortion think first about this female. If you watch the movie Juno, it is about someone like this. She is a high school age girl who has a male friend and she wants to see what it is like to have sex. She becomes pregnant, of course she thinks about the possibility of ending the child's life. After all, she is far too young to be taking care of a baby.>
<In the movie Juno, the female named Juno decided that it would be wrong to end her baby's life, after all, the little one didn't do anything wrong and has no say in anything just yet, instead she puts the child up for adoption. The parents are picked out before the baby is even born.>
<The movie even talks about the difference between an open and a closed adoption. The difference being once this baby is out of her, does she want to be a part of the baby's life? Do you want to get a birthday invitation every year or do you want to try to pretend that this whole thing never happened?>
<I have never gotten a woman pregnant so I can't talk too much on what that would be like, however if you ever become pregnant and choose to adopt your baby out then that is something that you will have to think about.>

<Personally I think it would be wrong for Female #1 to get an abortion, as for Female #2, that is a harder question, yet I think it would be best if she adopted such a baby out, if she did not want to raise the little one herself.>
<Female #3 has it hard. If she ends the baby's life then at least one of them will live, if she doesn't end the baby's life then there is a good chance that both of them will die. Given these facts I think that abortion may be the right choice, however I would not try to push my views on anyone in any of these cases.>
<Female #4 would rather have a boy, yet is pregnant with a girl. Actually this can fit with anyone who is pregnant and wants one gender over the other. Basic math says that every person you have to support costs resources, no matter how rich or poor I am I only have 24 hours in a day to do whatever I am going to do, that includes spending time with any children that I have. I might have the money to support only one child or a thousand children, however it works out if I want a boy than it might make sense to kill any girls until I get the boy that I want. That way resources (time, money, energy) do not have to be 'wasted' on an unwanted child when a 'better' child could come along later.>
<Personally I DO NOT feel that way. Every child deserves to be loved, and killing a child because they are 'the wrong gender' seems cruel to me.>
<Female #5 is the last on my list, and I am sorry if I forgot anyone. She wants a child just not right now. I am not a doctor, yet I understand that if you have an abortion you can damage your ability to have children in the future, especially if it is done wrong. It is even possible for a female to die if their abortion is done wrong.>
<It all comes down to this, if you don't want to have a baby right now then keep your pants on.>
<If someone rapes you then clearly you didn't have a say in the matter, and if the doctor tells you that your life is on the line then that is another story all together. In my view only Female #2, and Female #3 should be allowed to get an abortion, the others should have kept their pants on, and now they should learn to live with the consequences.>

<I would also like to add that even though the child is growing inside of the mother, and only she physically needs to go to the abortion clinic to have an abortion, half of the DNA and the responsibility belongs to the father of the child. As such if at all possible the father should be made aware that the mother is pregnant and he should have just as much say in the matter as the mother.>
<The exception here is in the case of rape, then it is the mother's choice. She may choose to tell or not, however because he is the kind of male who would rape a female he is most likely not the kind of person you would want raising a child, especially if the child is female.>

<...and yes, I have heard stories about males raping their own female offspring, even those too young to be speaking in complete paragraphs, or sometimes even whole sentences. This is yet another reason that life imprisonment or even the death penalty is worth considering.>


<Another point worth thinking about is how this question is affected by the existence or non-existence of the human soul.>
<If the soul does not exist then what does it matter if a woman has an abortion? Yet if the soul is real then what does that change?>
<Do you believe that the existence or non-existence of a soul is relevant to this question, and if so how does it change things?>
Last edited by Tobias_Marco on Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Abortion

Post by MahaSMB » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:44 pm

Some very well written and cogent arguments here. I like that.

I'd like to reference a TED video (http://www.ted.com/talks/melinda_gates_ ... genda.html)

It's about contraception and NOT abortion which are very different and distinct, yet they're both a part of planned parenthood. That said, as different as they are many of the points made by Melinda can be used for a pro-choice argument: Allowing abortions will improve the life of females (health, financial, education etc.) which will improve the lives of their family and friends which will improve the lives of people in their community, followed by people in their city and eventually the lives of people in their country and the whole planet.

That, in my opinion, is the strongest argument for pro-choice when you gloss over everything else. It's not an easy decision or one that should be (and in most cases) will be taken lightly, but the fact that the capability to even make that decision exists is what's important. People are dying left, right and centre in this world. I think there can be less than that if people are smarter and think more deeply about human improvement/advancement.

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Re: Abortion

Post by Tobias_Marco » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:59 pm

<First I would like to go back to what saephirayew had to say and point out that it is not at all surprising at all to me to find a personal story on this topic. I know that I personally have no say whatsoever in how you or anyone else on this site or anywhere in the world lives their life.>
<Looking at the facts you are a younger person, many years ago when people did not live as long a female your age would be expected to become a mother by now, in fact it would be seen as odd for a 19 year old female to be unmarried and without children. However this is today, and many people feel that you should have more experience before becoming a parent. Clearly you agree with this basic idea because both you and the human male you were with took steps to prevent the birth of an unwanted child.>
<However you were still faced with a pregnancy, and you had to decide for yourselves (you and the human male who provided the sperm), what to do about this situation.>
<On one hand I think it is good that you took steps not to become pregnant before you were ready to become a parent, on the other hand I advise that nobody should be having sex until they are married and ready to be parents.>
<On one hand you may look back and think that your life could have had so much more freedom if you had waited, however on the other hand you and other people like you (people who have unplanned children) usually say things to the effect of "Sure I didn't plan on having a child right now, and yeah there are so many things I would have liked to do that I can't now, yet somehow I wouldn't trade any of that for the gift of this little one that I have today.>

<I'm not sure what my point here is, I'm not trying to judge you in anyway, or tell you that you made a bad choice.>
<For one thing that isn't my place, for another if you and I lived on the same block and had been best friends since we were 3 years old and you came to me and told me that you were pregnant by your boyfriend and asked me what you should do, then I don't know for sure what I would advise.>
<I think my main point is to point out that this should be considered by anyone who is thinking about having sex before they are ready to be a parent.>
<Yes you may have had sex with your last boyfriend or girlfriend, yes you many not have gotten pregnant. Yes you might use the pill and condoms every time, yet that doesn't prevent pregnancy.>
<Another thing that doesn't stop pregnancy is that this is your fist time. According to all available information both of my parents were virgins on the morning of their wedding. They were married in a July wedding, nine months to the day later I was born. It was the first time they had ever had sex, at all or with each other, yet sperm met egg and 32 years and one month later I sit in front of my computer typing this.>

Kes wrote:Kind of surprised that this was one of the topics listed as a first five post. I see that the last post was kind of old, but I kind of feel the need to jump in because the poll options are kind of gross. I would go with the last option, but of course it's alive. I feel like no one is fully objecting to that.

However, it's not autonomous. And more important, the fetus's lack of autonomy can only be supported by someone else's body. Since no one is legally obligated to donate kidneys, or even donate blood, it's unfair to expect a person to donate their uterus for nine months without constant consent. Even if the fetus were a legal person, it would not have the right to someone else's body. Pregnancy isn't always easy and can cause a variety of medical problems, some temporary, some permanent, some minor, some life changing.

It's important to understand in this "debate" that the pro-choice side isn't advocating everyone get or even consider an abortion, just that it is available and safe for anyone who needs or wants one. This leads to fewer deaths from complications from unsafe, illegal abortions.

It's also important to realize that there is a living legal person involved. This person may have preexisting medical conditions that make it unsafe to carry a pregnancy. Over half the people who get abortions already have children that need their time, emotional and financial support. Some people just don't want to be pregnant, and that's okay too. Remember, adoption is an alternative to parenthood, abortion is an alternative to pregnancy.
<In response to this I would like to start out by saying "YEAH! I started the 'first five posts' topic, and I think this is the first time I think I've read someone say that they posted on a topic just because it was talked about there.>

<The next thing I want to say is that I find it somewhat off putting that we are differencing between the 'legal person' the mother who more often than not made the choice to have sex knowing full well that it could lead to a child, and the 'non-legal person' of the fetus, who I think we can all agree, did not have any say or choice in the matter.>
However, it's not autonomous. And more important, the fetus's lack of autonomy can only be supported by someone else's body. Since no one is legally obligated to donate kidneys, or even donate blood, it's unfair to expect a person to donate their uterus for nine months without constant consent. Even if the fetus were a legal person, it would not have the right to someone else's body. Pregnancy isn't always easy and can cause a variety of medical problems, some temporary, some permanent, some minor, some life changing.
<To me this almost makes it sound like somebody broke into your house and has been living in your basement against your will.>
<I'm sorry, I just can't see it that way. Yes it is true that the government can't, as of this writing at least, force anyone to donate a kidney, a lung or blood or even blood plasma. If someone came up to me and told me that the president of the USA needed a new lung and of all the people in the USA I was the best possible match, and that as a result I was going to be forced to give up the requested body part I would be upset.>
[Please note that this has nothing to do with who the president is at the time of this writing or at the time you read this, all factors of just who the president of the USA is are being ignored at this time, for the sake of making this easier.]
<Actually, no, lets say for the sake of discussion that when the the time came to vote for the president of the USA I thought that this one person was great, they are perfect. I agree with this person on ever issue. Almost as if this candidate were hand picked biased on what I personally wanted to have in a president, and I voted for this person (notice I have not said anything about the race, gender or creed of this person), not only that but everyone elected to congress is exactly who I would pick. The whole world is going to change for the better because we have thrown out all the loud mouthed, self centered jerks and put in candidates who will truly care about what the people want and the USA enters into a new age of enlightenment and the minimum wage reaches a record high, the cost of living reaches a record low, the unemployment rate reaches a record low and everybody in the world has affordable health care, and all major illnesses have been wiped out. In the last 5 years the only people who have died are people who were being stupid and said "Watch this, its going to be amazing." right before doing something unbelievably stupid.>
<Lets say that all that were true, and that it could all be attributed to one person who turned everything around, and now this person is sick and needs one of my body parts.>
<If that were really the case I might be able to part with a kidney, a lung or some blood plasma. Given a case like that I would most likely get paid for the removal of the body part in question. However if they were going to force me to give up that body part, pay or no pay (and to keep it close to what we are talking about here it would be a no-pay case), I would want to say 'no' sure he or she is a great person, yes they have done a lot of good for the world, however as a human being I don't like to be forced into things.>

<HOWEVER that is not what we are talking about here. In fact it isn't even close.>
<This 'non-legal person' did not come into the basement of a legal person and start eating the legal person's food without permission.>
<In this case the legal person chose to invite the 'non-legal person' to live with them, in truth the 'non-legal person' doesn't even have a say in the matter. This 'non-legal person' is being forced to live in the home of the legal person and eat the food that is provided for them. This 'non-legal person' has no say in the matter; as such the legal person has a duty and responsibility to this 'non-legal person' and their well being.>

<I just watched the movie Ransom, it doesn't matter if you have seen the movie or not, the story is about a father and mother who have a son. The son is kidnapped and the kidnappers want some money and they promise to give the kid back for the stated amount of money.>
<That is really all you need to know about the movie.>
<The boy didn't ask to be kidnapped; it didn't just happened ether. The kidnappers made choices, there were lots of choices made leading up to the day that they did this thing. Once they 'did the act' they had a person in their house that they didn't have before.>
<Did they have a right to sue him or yell at him for being there?>
<NO! He didn't ask to be there at all.>
<However because he was there they had a responsibility to feed him and give him water and keep him alive.>

<In much the same way I have made many choices in my life that could someday lead to me having someone living in my house who doesn't live with me now.>
<If someday my wife becomes pregnant or your girlfriend becomes pregnant, does ether of us have any right at all to blame the child for existing? NO! Of course not!>
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Re: Abortion

Post by Kes » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:13 am

Ooh. I return to check this place out and notice that my post got a reply. It just seems rude to not respond back.

First of all, Tobias_Marco, I understand the idea of legal persons and non-persons seems morally questionable to you and I totally get where you're coming from, but I was making my argument on a purely legal standpoint. A fetus is not legally a person right now and therefore does not have any legal rights. That's all I was getting at. Honestly I have no place deciding whether or not abortion is morally right. I think it is for me, but the point of being pro-choice is making sure the pregnant person has every option legal and accessible regardless of what they may choose.

I also want to get the following things out of the way: props for understanding that rape victims are never at fault, too many people don't. Also, legal abortion (think Planned Parenthood) is one of the safest surgeries (when it's a surgery at all), infertility and death are much more likely in a situation where someone is getting an illegal and unregulated surgical abortion (think Gosnell for a modern example, or google around for some horror stories about pre Roe v Wade days). Finally, you say that birth control methods besides abstinence are not fully effective and abstinence is, however, it's worth noting birth control effectiveness is measured twice, with correct use (e.g. condoms 98% effective) and when not always used correctly (e.g. condoms 82% effective) <source>. If abstinence isn't used correctly, it's got a pretty damn low effectiveness rate, so it's worth acknowledging that if people can't use it correctly, is it fair to say it has a 100% effectiveness rate? Food for thought anyway.

And finally before I address your arguments, I do want to say, again, that I am functioning under the assumption that your want your beliefs to extend beyond your own opinions (e.g. pass a pro-life law) and your ability to persuade others. Like with Joe Biden and Paul Ryan. They're both Catholic and stood with the church on its stance with abortion, but Ryan wanted that stance to become law and Biden didn't. So if you're a Biden, I'm totally cool with that and even though I disagree with your opinion, I respect it and you can ignore what I am going to write below, if you want since a lot doesn't actually apply if you're only stating what you morally would do if you were a woman in any of those situations. However, if you are a Ryan, I still disagree with your opinion, but now I respect it less because this means you're trying to make it a law (via voting, petition signing, etc.) and that starts to infringe on what I can do with my body.

Now let's jump in! It looks like you seem to think abortion is wrong because the fetus has no choice in the matter and deserves to live. Except you also believe that abortion is acceptable in cases of rape in order to not further damage the mental/emotional health of the pregnant person. Now, I agree it's important to acknowledge that if the rape victim doesn't want to be pregnant, the pregnancy can be extra emotionally damaging because it's a further infringement to that person's body. But the question then arises, if that fetus is equally as deserving of life, why is that pregnant person's mental/emotional wellbeing given priority over the the fetus's life? After all, you said the fetus deserves to live because it didn't have a choice
the mother who more often than not made the choice to have sex knowing full well that it could lead to a child, and the 'non-legal person' of the fetus, who I think we can all agree, did not have any say or choice in the matter.
but also said the rape victim (i.e. "Female #2") deserves to terminate the pregnancy because that person did not choose to have sex
If someone rapes you then clearly you didn't have a say in the matter, and if the doctor tells you that your life is on the line then that is another story all together. In my view only Female #2, and Female #3 should be allowed to get an abortion
Ignoring the life-of-the-pregnant-person scenario right now, either you believe that people shouldn't be able to get abortions because the fetus has a right to live and therefore there should be no exception for rape victims because the circumstances of conception do not effect the worthiness of the fetus, or you there's more at play beyond your belief. After all, pregnancy has many potential complications both physically and mentally/emotionally and even without complications the pregnancy will alter the person's life. Those things are true whether or not the pregnant person had been raped. The only reason you would make a rape exception is if you want to punish people for having sex, specifically the person with the uterus. You said
the others should have kept their pants on, and now they should learn to live with the consequences
and it's worth noting that having an abortion is one way of dealing with those "consequences"; however, you seem to think that an abortion should not be how one chooses to "live with the consequences". Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do because they did something you didn't think was acceptable sounds like the definition of "punishment" to me.

You say that a lot of people say they wish they hadn't gotten pregnant but they end up loving their kid, but it's also true that a lot of people wish they hadn't become pregnant and don't like their kid. Remember, abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is only an alternative to parenthood. So, even if the parent, after the birth decides to give the child up for adoption because they do not want to be a parent (even though giving up for adoption is emotionally tougher on a person than going through an abortion), they still are forced through the pregnancy. If the pregnant person doesn't want the fetus in the first place, what stops them from drinking alcohol or coffee or eating sushi and soft cheeses, what stops them from going on roller coasters, what stops them from putting its life and their life in danger by attempting a self-induced abortion or seeking an illegal, unsafe abortion? Even with laws in place, you can't make sure these people don't do a lot of harm to themselves and the fetus they are carrying. Is it really fair to say, then, that you don't want the pregnant person to have an abortion because the fetus deserves to live? Even though once it's born, if the parent chooses to keep the baby, they may not have the resources or the physical/emotional capabilities to properly care for it. Even though once it's born, if the parent chooses to give it up for adoption, it will likely end up not being adopted and thrown into the foster care system especially if the baby is disabled and/or of color? Is it fair to the fetus to treat it as a punishment for the pregnant person for having sex? Is it fair to all the people who do want and have kids to treat pregnancy as a punishment? If you really truly are anti-choice, please fully think your reasoning through and find out what drives it because as it stands, your argument is not internally consistent.*

It's important to remember that we're not talking about people's houses. We're not talking about people's property. We're talking about people's bodies. Bodies are not something we own, it's something we are. And that means (at least to me) that the decision to alter the body in any way belongs to the owner of that body. Consent deserves to be required and constant. You do not have rights over your DNA, people who have donated bone marrow do not have a say over what the person who received the transplant can do with their blood, just like the sperm owner has no say over what the pregnant person can do with the pregnancy.

And again, from a legal standpoint, we don't even force people to donate their organs after they're dead (unless they agreed to be an organ donor and did not withdraw that consent before dying), so I think we should at least give pregnant people the same consideration we give cadavers.

Anyway, I hope I made my point well enough. It's really really late now.

*I do think your argument is internally consistent if you are a "Biden" as was outlined above, because in that case your argument also is based on ultimately respecting a woman's ability to make that choice, even if you disagree with her choices and think some options are better than others.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Tobias_Marco » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:26 am

<I would like to start out by saying that when I first joined this topic I tried to approach it as I try to approach every problem that I face, logically and by looking at every possible answer, looking at the pros and cons of each and seeing why people might choose to take every side.>
<Every time a female finds herself pregnant she logically has only so many options, she can choose to tell the male who provided the sperm of the baby or she may not, you can't do it half way. However in some cases you may be able to tell him that you are pregnant without telling him that he is the father. This would of course depend on him somehow not knowing that he provided the sperm or him believing that there were many who provided sperm and that you aren't sure what sperm took. There is also the choice of what to do with the child. Some people say that nobody should ever get an abortion, these people most likely view each new life as special and unique. Still others will say that abortions should be limited to only some people, that is the view point I was exploring when I was looking at the question of who should be allowed to get them if we were to limit them. Then logically if we are going to explore every possible viewpoint there maybe people out there who think that everyone who gets pregnant should get an abortion, these people most likely believe that overpopulation is a very serious problem and we need to control our growth rate so that we do not run out of resources.>
<However even if you do believe that over population is a problem you are not likely to think that EVERYONE should get an abortion, because if everyone who ever found out that they are pregnant got an abortion than the very last human to every be born would soon grow old and die and there would be no more humans, so it is not likely that many people would hold this viewpoint.>
<This is not to say that I think overpopulation is that big a problem, I am only trying to look at this logically and from all possible viewpoints.>
<Logically it is more likely if you feel that overpopulation is a problem you would believe that some people should still be allowed to have children, however it should be highly regulated. If we are going to regulate who can and can not have children than we should look at what studies have been done on producing the best offspring and work from there.>
<At least one study has shown that happier, more well adjusted children come from married couples. Most if not all people who talk about regulating pregnancy will start by saying that we should first limit it to those who are married.>
<However even if we did see over population as such a big problem that any pregnancy that happened outside of a marriage was mandatory aborted there would still be a significant population growth, the next step would be to require people to get a special pregnancy license.>
<Who can get a pregnancy license and who can't? In the United States of America, and many other places in the world you can get licensees to do many different things, one of the first things that you need to do is go to a government building and pay some kind of fee. I have in the past gotten a licensee to go fishing, this allowed me to go fishing however it also limited how many I was allowed to catch. A pregnancy license would most likely work the same way, once you have it you can have children, however you are only allowed so many. If you want any more you can't have them, or you can if you get another license.>
<Then there is the drivers license, with a fishing license almost anyone can get one if they just pay a small cost, a driver's license is different; not just anyone can get one, first you must be of a given age, depending on your local laws, and you must pass two tests first, one written, the other is a practice exam.>
<During my life I have also gotten a marriage license, this said that I was allowed to get married, however I could only do so within a given time frame, I had to wait a given number of days before I could get married (most likely so I would have time to think it over and be sure I knew what I was doing), and I also had a last day that I was allowed to get married, if for any reason the two people named on this marriage license did not get married within the time given then they would need to come back and pay the cost of the license all over again.>
<Regardless of your own beliefs on the topic you SHOULD be able to accept that there are people out there that take each of the views so far presented here.>
<Now for the first opinion that I am purposefully putting into this post: I do not know of any real world examples of places that currently require a license to have children, however if they ever make such a thing a requirement (I am not saying if I think that is a good thing or a bad thing, at least not right now), then I would like it to be like a fishing license, AND like a driver's license AND the marriage license; you must be at least a given age to get one, you must pass a written test and a practice test before you can get one, and once you have one, it limits how many children you can have, and you have to have them within a given time period.>

"Congratulations on getting your pregnancy license Mr and Mrs. Jones, you are a married couple at least ___ years of age, you have passed all the required tests and are now allowed to have up to two children within the next five years. If at that time or after having two children you wish to have any more children you can reapply at that time." - Mr. Government employee said as he/she handed them their license.

“it's worth noting birth control effectiveness is measured twice, with correct use (e.g. condoms 98% effective) and when not always used correctly (e.g. condoms 82% effective) <source>. If abstinence isn't used correctly, it's got a pretty damn low effectiveness rate, so it's worth acknowledging that if people can't use it correctly, is it fair to say it has a 100% effectiveness rate? Food for thought anyway.”
<A very good point, and there are many people who when they are young they make the abstinence pledge, they promised that they will not have sex with anyone until the day they get married and then only with their spouse. That being said we are only human and we can make mistakes.>
<Sometimes someone will make that pledge and then have sex outside of marriage. Ether before they get married or after they get married with someone they are not married to.>
“if you're only stating what you morally would do if you were a woman in any of those situations.”
<For some reason I found this funny. First thing we need to realize is that Yes I am a man. Therefore I will never get an abortion on myself. However just because I can’t get pregnant does not mean that I can’t make a baby.>
<I am of the belief that unless supernatural forces are at work then both a male and a female will need to play a role in producing a child. I also believe that each of those parents should have a say in what happens to that child. If I am a high school boy and I go out on a date with a girl in my class and she gets pregnant then I should have a say in what happens to this child.>
<That being said, if I am a teenage boy and I rape a girl in my class and she gets pregnant then not only should I NOT get a say in what happens to that child I also probably should not get a say in if I should keep my ‘family jewels’ or not.>
<PLEASE NOTE: The above are purely hypothetical situations, I was well out of my teenage years before I ever got anywhere close to having sex, and I have never raped anyone.>
“…and that starts to infringe on what I can do with my body.”
<Let’s say just for hypothetical that I am a male and you are a female and we have purely consensual sexual intercourse that leads to you becoming pregnant. There are at least three people who should have a say in the matter, people who’s thoughts should be considered: the first person is fairly clear, it is the female who is pregnant, it is she who is going to have to carry the child, and if there is to be an abortion it is she who will have to see that she gets there. The second is somewhat less talked about, yet still important, the male who provided the sperm, he fathered this child and maybe he really wants to be a father. There are stories of women who really want to become mothers married to men who don’t want to become fathers, logically it makes sense that the opposite can also be true. Maybe I really want to become a father, yet the woman I had sex with really doesn’t want to become a mother. Why should one voice be heard and the other completely ignored. Both should be able to weigh in. The third voice is from one who can’t speak yet, however if they could would most likely vote against the abortion, that of the unborn child.>
<Now if I became ruler of the world tomorrow I don’t know if I would ever make a law about abortion or not, and if so what side it would take, research shows that if a law is passed making abortions illegal then many people get illegal ones and that causes so much more harm than legal ones if for no other reason then better training and cleaner facilities.>
<One question that comes to mind as I read this is “What would I do, if I were a woman, and I was raped and found out that I was pregnant by my rapist?” For the sake of the question lets say that I have never even asked myself if I even want to become a mother or not.>
<First of all I think I brought up the morning after pill. If I were a woman who had been raped I hope that my first response would be to call the police and get started on the investigation, semen samples can be taken to find DNA so we can find this jerk who imposed his will on this woman (me) and bring him to justice, that being said from what I have read and heard many women don’t do that; they feel dirty and so they take really long showers and try to wash the filth and shame off of them, and in doing so destroy a lot of evidence. This is one of those cases where you don’t know what you would do until the time actually comes, and I hope that nobody reading this ever has to face that situation.>
<So in this story a female me has just been raped, maybe I reported it, maybe I didn’t. Either way there is the morning after pill that can be taken to prevent pregnancy. I would like to think I would take advantage of this option.>
<What if for some reason that doesn’t happen? Maybe I was so depressed that I couldn’t leave my house or tell anyone about it or I thought if people saw me buying these pills they would think I was a slut? Maybe my rapist is also a kidnapper and he held me in his basement for months at a time and by the time the police found me I am already a few weeks or months pregnant? Then what?>
<I don’t know for sure what I would do in that situation. Yes I think that a female in this situation should have a little more freedom to get an abortion then the girl who had sex with her prom date because one of them signed up for this and the other did not. On the other hand I see the unborn child as a living being who has no say in the matter. Who has more rights, the woman who had no say in getting raped or the child who has no say in getting aborted? I think in this case I MIGHT lean more towards keeping the child, however this is JUST ME, and I am by no means saying that if you find yourself in that situation that you should or have to do what I am saying that you should.>
<Part of the reason that I phrased these posts the way that I have is because IF a law were made saying who could and who could not get an abortion then I think considerations should be made for given facts, the health of the mother, the health of the child and the willingness of the mother to have sex being some that I would put at the top of my list.>
<I’m going to put this another way, pretend that I am a judge, and anyone who wants to get an abortion in my city, has to get approval from me first. Also pretend that I am only allowed to give approval for 100 abortions per year. Who would I give them to? The first abortions would go to people who have health concerns, the mother may not survive giving birth, or if an abortion doesn’t happen then both may die. The next group that I would approve is people who were raped and don’t want the child. This woman never asked to have sex and yet it was forced on her, she doesn’t want a child, I can’t say “Well it’s a little late now! You should have thought about that before you were raped!” That sounds heartless and cruel. On the other hand saying “Well it’s a little late now! You should have thought about that before you had sex with your prom date!” somehow seems a lot fairer, after all, you can always say no to your prom date, then you won’t get pregnant, and if he forces himself on you then you fall into the rape category, and I already said that I would allow that under the circumstances.>
<At no time did I mean to say that a rape victim ‘deserves’ to have an abortion, only that if they choose to have one I am more acceptation of it. To say that they ‘deserve an abortion’ sounds like anyone who is raped will be given an abortion if they want it or not, and that doesn’t sound right ether.>
<I will admit that there may be some flaws with my logic on this issue, I am only human after all, regardless of my feelings on that fact.>
<I wasn’t thinking of it as ‘punishing people for having sex’ however that does not mean that it is correct or incorrect to do so. It is a well known fact that sex feels good, there is no denying this. However it is also a well known fact that having sex can lead to babies and/or the spreading of certain diseases. However the spread of said illnesses can be prevented if we each only choose one sexual partner. If each of us only has sex with one person throughout our lifetime then in theory these illnesses would become much rarer. Also if sex only happens between married couples then there is a stronger environment in which to raise such a child.>
<As most people here know I am a Christian, as such I believe that it is morally wrong to have sexual relations outside of marriage, however I am trying to keep my religious views and my intellectual views well balanced, there are many scientifically biased reasons ‘to keep it in your pants’ until after you are married.>
<I also know that if I was to say that I thought all abortions should be illegal regardless of the reasoning there are many people who would become upset. Now I don’t think I would find such a law a wise move anyway even if I did have the power to make it so, however I think that it would be far more reasonable to make a law limiting abortions to people who fit within given categories.>
<I have also heard that one of the biggest groups who get abortions are married women who already have children, and can’t afford any more. I did not consider this group when I made the earlier post.>
<Consider this woman, she is happily married, she is in fine health. The doctor tells her that she is pregnant and there is no sign of any complications. She was impregnated by her own husband as they were enjoying the pleasure of togetherness (Christianity sees nothing wrong with this so far), however the family only makes so much money a year. Once the rent/mortgage, the electricity, the trash bill, the phone bill and maybe a car payment are taken care of there is only so much money left. How much clothing and food can be purchased with this money? Can they afford to have this other child? Many married couples do the math and say “no we can’t.” They see the financial cost of getting an abortion and see that it is a lot, however it is nothing when compared to the cost of raising another child.>
“and it's worth noting that having an abortion is one way of dealing with those "consequences"; however, you seem to think that an abortion should not be how one chooses to "live with the consequences". Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do because they did something you didn't think was acceptable sounds like the definition of "punishment" to me.”

<I’m going to take a moment to look at that last part again.>
“Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do because they did something you didn't think was acceptable sounds like the definition of "punishment" to me.”
<Yes, when viewed that way it does look like I am punishing people for having sex, and forgive me if I read this wrong, but I get the feeling that you are a little angry at this view.>
<Let’s look at some questions that have been raised: Is “forcing someone to do something they don’t want to do because they did something you didn't think was acceptable” a good definition of the word ‘punishment’? Earlier today I was babysitting my brother’s son and daughter. At one point I put one of them in ‘time out’ and at another time I told the other that if they kept up what they were doing I would put them in ‘time out’, I would be forcing them to sit in a corner for a given length of time because they did things that I did not find acceptable. We do the same thing when we put people in jail. When I was a boy I was spanked for certain behaviors. So yes, I think this definition fits.>
<Is having an abortion a way of dealing with the consequences of pregnancy? Yes, however I could easily turn this around. I am currently living in a very small home that I don’t like. I chose to live here because it was all I could afford at the time, I must deal with the consequences of that choice. Maybe I choose to rob a bank. Then I will have the money I need to move into a better place.>
<It is clear that me robbing a bank is something that CAN be done, because people have done it in the past. It is also clear that IF I can rob a bank without getting caught then it would solve my money problems, at least for now, however most people would view this solution as ‘wrong’. The point here is that just because you can do something it doesn’t mean that you should.>
<If I go to jail for robbing the bank I can’t just blame the cops who arrested me, I chose to rob that bank. Likewise if you choose to have sex and you get an unwanted pregnancy out of it then you can’t just blame any one person, you also had a say in the matter.>
<This is not to say that nobody should be allowed to have abortions, I was trying to look at the issue from as many sides as possible, and see why some people would view it as wrong, and why some people should be allowed to have them and others do not.>
<It is also note worthy that many women report feeling guilty after having an abortion, yet nobody has ever reported feeling guilty for performing CPR or the Heimlich maneuver on someone to save their life.>
<One could argue that we only feel guilty when we have done something wrong, therefore any action where people feel guilty after doing it should be made illegal. This is clearly an extreme that we shouldn’t follow, however I just want you to think about it. How often do you feel guilty for doing the right thing? Are you 100% sure that was the right thing to do at that time?>
<You do raise a good point though, one I have never argued against, no matter what the laws say people will find ways around them.>
<Going back to the earlier situation, I am a judge and a woman comes up to me, I only have 100 abortions that I can authorize in this city per year, and every other city has the same system in place, then anyone who is told they can’t get a legal abortion can find a way to have an illegal one, maybe by consuming unsafe substances or performing tasks that are unsafe for the child. No matter what laws are or are not put in place there will be people who find ways around them, anyone who doesn’t believe that should look into stories about the 18th amendment (prohibition) and the 21st amendment. Between 1919 and 1933 it was illegal to sell alcohol anywhere in the United States of America, yet people made, transported, sold and drank alcohol; they did it quite a lot.>
“Is it fair to the fetus to treat it as a punishment for the pregnant person for having sex?”
<No, but then nobody ever said humans were fair. It can be argued that if we are going to be fair every murderer on Earth should be put to death in the method that they killed their victims, not allowed to live in prison for the rest of their lives. It could be argued that people who are unfit parents should be forced to have their genitals ‘fixed’ so they can have as much sex as they want without even the smallest risk of getting pregnant. It could be argued that it is not fair to our children to pass them from one grade level to the next without making sure they know how to read, write and think at the level of those around them.>
“Is it fair to all the people who do want and have kids to treat pregnancy as a punishment?”
<For them it is not a punishment. For them it is a blessing. There is even a Bible verse (more than one actually) that says that every child is a blessing to their parents. I never said that children are a punishment for having sex, I was trying to say that it was sex outside of marriage that is wrong, not sex as a whole. What about those who say that abortion is murder? Is it fair to this child to murder them when all they did was exist? What if someone broke into your house and killed you because you exist? Would that be fair to you? No, I don’t think it would. Killing someone as punishment for a crime is justice, killing someone because of their language, skin color, religion, gender, or because they were conserved when you didn’t want them is murder, and it is wrong.>
<Putting our logic together I say that having sex with anyone you aren’t married to is wrong. If such sex happens it is possible a baby could be produced, you say that it is alright for this couple to murder an unborn child just because they didn’t want it.>

“If you really truly are anti-choice, please fully think your reasoning through and find out what drives it because as it stands, your argument is not internally consistent.*
It's important to remember that we're not talking about people's houses. We're not talking about people's property. We're talking about people's bodies. Bodies are not something we own, it's something we are. And that means (at least to me) that the decision to alter the body in any way belongs to the owner of that body.”
<Now you’re the one who is not being internally consistent’.>
“Bodies are not something we own”
“belongs to the owner of that body”
<I thought you just said that we don’t own our bodies? Now you are saying that we do?>
<Actually I’m not so much anti-choice, as I am pro-think before you do something stupid. (Even though I have made some big mistakes in my own past).>
<Allow me to explain, I have seen a lot of movies and read a lot of books, the following is a situation that I am ripping off little bits of from about a thousand books and movies that I have encountered. As I type this my wife is out of town, she left on May 3rd. during the time that has passed I have had the house to myself. As you may or may not know October 31st is Halloween, a day when people dress up in costumes and wear masks. Often people have Halloween parties, sometimes these parties involve alcohol.>
<Let’s say that on Halloween night I go to a club or a Halloween party somewhere in costume where nobody knows me, and I leave my wedding ring at home. My hands are covered in gloves that are part of my costume anyway so nobody can see the mark that shows that I have worn a ring for a long time. (think about tan lines and the dents glasses can make on a person’s nose after wearing them for years). I go to this party where nobody knows me, and nobody knows that I am married. I haven’t seen my wife in months, and she isn’t here, so she’ll never know what I do tonight. So I walk up to a nice looking girl, maybe she is a zombie cheerleader, a vampire nun or mermaid princess, the point is I decide she looks hot and I complement her on her costume, and she complements me on mine, long story short we end up in bed together.>
<Would this be a smart move on my part? Is it wise (smart and wise are two very different things)? Is it stupid?>
<What consequences could there be if I really did this?>
<One possibility is that she might get pregnant, and if so she might seek me out. Sure she can have an abortion without telling me, I can even plan it out so I am hard to track down. I never tell her my name, only to call me by some nick name related to my costume. She could have some kind of illness that is transmitted by sexual contact, if so and it is one that will clear up in a few days with the right meds then maybe my wife will never find out, however what if its incurable? One day ten years from now my wife goes into the doctor’s office and finds out she has AIDS, she knows she didn’t have it when we got married, and she realizes that I cheated on her. How likely is she to go easy on me for doing it during a point in our marriage when she chose to leave town without a good reason?>
<What other possibilities are there? Let’s say the girl I cheat on my wife with does get pregnant, and she does give birth, will she want child support? Will I hear a knock on the door in 12 years as an 11 year old tells me that he or she thinks I’m their daddy? How would my wife react to finding out about my little Halloween bash that way?>
<My point is that we need to think things through before we do them. Yes sex feels good at the moment, however the consequences last a lifetime, even if you do get an abortion.>
<I have never considered myself to be a ‘Biden’ however as you define it I guess that is what I am, I have a point of view (everyone has one after all, at very least anyone older than 3 Earth years of age), and I do believe that we all deserve at least a minimum amount of respect just for being human. I have always believed that applied knowledge is power, however that power is only in what choices we make. If you ever become pregnant I respect your ability to chose, and if you chose life for your child or death I as a human being that did not help bring it into being have no authority to say what you should or should not do. If you ask me for my opinion I can give it to you, as I have done here, however ultimately the choice is yours.>
<Consider this case, there is a human male and a human female who choose to have consensual sexual relations and it results in a pregnancy, she tells him that she is pregnant, and he wants to keep the baby and raise him or her together, however she does not want to go through with it, maybe she thinks that she is too young, or they don’t have the resources to support a child. She can choose to get an abortion without his knowledge or consent. As I see it I believe this would be an underhanded move and they should both agree on what happens with this child, however I don’t see it as my place to make laws to that effect.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

1everdude
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Re: Abortion

Post by 1everdude » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:12 am

Personally, I feel that it is wrong and should not happen, except in a few situations. If the mother was raped, if the baby would be born basically a vegetable, or if it is endangering the mothers life. In other situations, I feel like if you don't want the baby just put it up for adoption.