Abortion

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What do you think of Abortion?

Its murder no matter which way you look at it
30
47%
Its only murder if it has fully developed
21
33%
There is nothing wrong with it it isn't truly alive
13
20%
 
Total votes: 64

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Elfangor
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Abortion

Post by Elfangor » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:40 pm

Hello all! John has just posted on his blog about abortion.
And I want to know what do you think of it. Do you think Abortion is Right, Wrong, or are you on the fence about the issue?
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Re: Abortion

Post by Snoopy » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:06 am

I'm moving this topic to "Politics" since it really is a political issue.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dr Sario » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:33 am

To me, it's only murder if the fetus has a nervous system and can feel pain, AND the mother's mental/physical health or education would be damaged.

To any American anti-abortionist who wants to argue, Why the hell has your country got a death penalty?
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Re: Abortion

Post by Kalash » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:09 pm

At least we're on the right track...

Is a fetus a PERSON with rights, or is it merely an object inside of a PERSON's body - part of them, that they can fully control by right?

Calling it murder is superfluous.
Taking the life of a PERSON is murder, regardless - even if done in self defense.
Is a fetus a PERSON with full, equal rights, as a person...
Or is it not?

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Re: Abortion

Post by Elfangor » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:13 pm

Kalash wrote:At least we're on the right track...

Is a fetus a PERSON with rights, or is it merely an object inside of a PERSON's body - part of them, that they can fully control by right?

Calling it murder is superfluous.
Taking the life of a PERSON is murder, regardless - even if done in self defense.
Is a fetus a PERSON with full, equal rights, as a person...
Or is it not?
The answer to you question(s) is simple its YES
You all have guns
And you never put the safety on
And you all have plans,
To take it



Don't Take It

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Re: Abortion

Post by Dr Sario » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:20 pm

Kalash wrote:At least we're on the right track...

Is a fetus a PERSON with rights, or is it merely an object inside of a PERSON's body - part of them, that they can fully control by right?

Calling it murder is superfluous.
Taking the life of a PERSON is murder, regardless - even if done in self defense.
Is a fetus a PERSON with full, equal rights, as a person...
Or is it not?
To me, a fetus is a person who's GETTING the rights.
And they should be counted as what they are: DEVELOPING PEOPLE. There may be some jewels in the mix, and some pieces of tar, but mostly it's just gravel. To me, the genetics give a STARTING POINT to personality, not achievements. Would you have aborted Hitler, if you could have accidentally aborted Einstein?
The difference between the murder/abortion is this: When you murder someone, you leave kids, a widow, maybe even parents without the member of a family. Abortion, you leave would-be mothers and fathers relieved for not having to change diapers.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dr Sario » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:12 pm

John3Sobieski wrote:The fetus in the womb is most certainly a person. My justification of this (which is in my blog) is that there is no biological purpose for sex other than making more humans. If it's in the womb, then it must be human. We all came from one, the womb is the source of all humanity.
And yet in the early weeks it hasn't got a central nervous system... So can't feel a thing.
John3Sobieski wrote:It may have a long way to develop, but it must be given the benefit of the doubt as to its humanity until it is proven 100% that the developement has gone so drastically wrong that it will never be anything but a parasite.

I say this because I saw on the TV once a case with two twins. One was just half a torso and legs, and was not going to develope any more. The other was completely healthy. The cords got tangled, making the possibility that the healthy baby would suffocate. In seeing that the parasitic twin could never be anything outside the womb as it would not have survived after birth, I think that the doctors made the right choice in taking out the parasite and saving the healthy baby's life.
Yes, that taking out the misdeveloped baby was correct, but hasn't got anything to do with abortion per se.
John3Sobieski wrote:The diapers thing is covered in the convenience section of my blog. Abortion is snuffing out an innocent life in the womb. It is on par with murder, and is often worse because most people aren't completely innocent. The person in the womb is.

About the mother's physical/mental health and education, the doctors can get that well in hand. And if she still can't handle the baby, then they can give it to another set of parents by adoption.

As for the death penalty, well, I've never had the opportunity to really vote against it.
Sorry, everyone wants to adopt from China, and there's a shortage of people willing to adopt from a less exotic county. (In Finland at least.)
AND the baby can't be innocent. Why? It can't be guilty. Would there be peace without war? Well, maybe, yes, but it would be a monotonous peace, not a real peace. So the baby in the womb isn't really innocent. Besides, how do you know whether the baby'll become like Alois Schicklgruber's most famous son.
John3Sobieski wrote:Self defense is not murder. When one person attacks another, they forfeit their own right to life and right to be free from bodily harm.
True.
John3Sobieski wrote:Sario, if you haven't read it already, I recommend you read my blog so you know where to tread, debates are more interesting that way.
I did.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Snoopy » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:49 pm

Dr Sario wrote:To any American anti-abortionist who wants to argue, Why the hell has your country got a death penalty?
We cover this topic in rather great deal in the "K.A.A. is a stereotyping bigot" thread, but I'll give a brief overview here.

The death penalty is reserved for those who take someone else's life. Someone who kills an innocent human being. Thus, the death penalty is just the most severe punishment we humans can inflict as punishment for the most severe crime and human can commit.

The key difference between the death penalty and abortion is this: Fetuses are innocent of any crimes whatsoever, while murderers sentenced to death are guilty of the greatest offense ever. It's simple really. In fact, it's so simple that I have a hard time understanding why it always comes up in abortion discussions...
Dr Sario wrote:The difference between the murder/abortion is this: When you murder someone, you leave kids, a widow, maybe even parents without the member of a family. Abortion, you leave would-be mothers and fathers relieved for not having to change diapers.
And here we see a crucial difference that can trace its roots all the way over to the "Does God Exist" thread. See, if you believe that humans are beings created by God in his image, as the Bible claims, then you place some intrinsic value on human beings, no matter how old, young, smart, stupid, beautiful, or ugly they may be. See, if humans are an image of God, then destroying a human would be like me burning a picture of, well anyone you would call important. A spouse, a child, a good friend, a president, etc. Sure, the picture itself may not be anything special, but it represents someone who is very important. Thus, the picture itself holds intrinsic value.

If, on the other hand, you believe that man is just an advanced animal who happens to talk and wear clothes, as evolution teaches, then it makes perfect sense to disregard some human lives while placing value on others. In fact, if we are all evolved animals, then there's nothing really wrong with killing the sick, weak, or stupid. After all, that would only increase the rate at which humanity evolves, right?

Please note, these above two paragraphs are not arguments for or against evolution. They are only meant to illustrate why some people hold human lives as valuable, while others do not.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dr Sario » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:59 pm

Snoopy wrote:
Dr Sario wrote:To any American anti-abortionist who wants to argue, Why the hell has your country got a death penalty?
We cover this topic in rather great deal in the "K.A.A. is a stereotyping bigot" thread, but I'll give a brief overview here.

The death penalty is reserved for those who take someone else's life. Someone who kills an innocent human being. Thus, the death penalty is just the most severe punishment we humans can inflict as punishment for the most severe crime and human can commit.

The key difference between the death penalty and abortion is this: Fetuses are innocent of any crimes whatsoever, while murderers sentenced to death are guilty of the greatest offense ever. It's simple really. In fact, it's so simple that I have a hard time understanding why it always comes up in abortion discussions...
So you kill a murderer by making the killer a murderer? Ding ding, you have to kill the guy who killed the doctor.
I will also point you to a post I made earlier in this topic.
Snoopy wrote:
Dr Sario wrote:The difference between the murder/abortion is this: When you murder someone, you leave kids, a widow, maybe even parents without the member of a family. Abortion, you leave would-be mothers and fathers relieved for not having to change diapers.
And here we see a crucial difference that can trace its roots all the way over to the "Does God Exist" thread. See, if you believe that humans are beings created by God in his image, as the Bible claims, then you place some intrinsic value on human beings, no matter how old, young, smart, stupid, beautiful, or ugly they may be. See, if humans are an image of God, then destroying a human would be like me burning a picture of, well anyone you would call important. A spouse, a child, a good friend, a president, etc. Sure, the picture itself may not be anything special, but it represents someone who is very important. Thus, the picture itself holds intrinsic value.
Now, a question I've always wanted to ask: Why the hell are Christians so death-phobic? Shouldn't they be waiting for their stay in the (rather boring) place they call Heaven?
Snoopy wrote:If, on the other hand, you believe that man is just an advanced animal who happens to talk and wear clothes, as evolution teaches, then it makes perfect sense to disregard some human lives while placing value on others. In fact, if we are all evolved animals, then there's nothing really wrong with killing the sick, weak, or stupid. After all, that would only increase the rate at which humanity evolves, right?
Yes.
Snoopy wrote:Please note, these above two paragraphs are not arguments for or against evolution. They are only meant to illustrate why some people hold human lives as valuable, while others do not.
Yes, I understood you. I don't hold human lives as very valuable. The intelligent ones who progress science, sure, I wouldn't want them dead. But the imbeciles who end up winning Darwin Awards, I rate them lower than the average dolphin.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Snoopy » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:18 pm

Dr Sario wrote:
Snoopy wrote:
Dr Sario wrote:To any American anti-abortionist who wants to argue, Why the hell has your country got a death penalty?
We cover this topic in rather great deal in the "K.A.A. is a stereotyping bigot" thread, but I'll give a brief overview here.

The death penalty is reserved for those who take someone else's life. Someone who kills an innocent human being. Thus, the death penalty is just the most severe punishment we humans can inflict as punishment for the most severe crime and human can commit.

The key difference between the death penalty and abortion is this: Fetuses are innocent of any crimes whatsoever, while murderers sentenced to death are guilty of the greatest offense ever. It's simple really. In fact, it's so simple that I have a hard time understanding why it always comes up in abortion discussions...
So you kill a murderer by making the killer a murderer? Ding ding, you have to kill the guy who killed the doctor.
I will also point you to a post I made earlier in this topic.
Once again, I fear I've missed the point of what you're saying. Perhaps you could rephrase your point?
Dr Sario wrote:I will also point you to a post I made earlier in this topic.
Snoopy wrote:
Dr Sario wrote:The difference between the murder/abortion is this: When you murder someone, you leave kids, a widow, maybe even parents without the member of a family. Abortion, you leave would-be mothers and fathers relieved for not having to change diapers.
And here we see a crucial difference that can trace its roots all the way over to the "Does God Exist" thread. See, if you believe that humans are beings created by God in his image, as the Bible claims, then you place some intrinsic value on human beings, no matter how old, young, smart, stupid, beautiful, or ugly they may be. See, if humans are an image of God, then destroying a human would be like me burning a picture of, well anyone you would call important. A spouse, a child, a good friend, a president, etc. Sure, the picture itself may not be anything special, but it represents someone who is very important. Thus, the picture itself holds intrinsic value.
Now, a question I've always wanted to ask: Why the hell are Christians so death-phobic? Shouldn't they be waiting for their stay in the (rather boring) place they call Heaven?
Christians are not "death-phobic". They believe that human live is intrinsically valuable. They believe that it's wrong to kill another innocent human being. But valuing life and being "death-phobic" are two entirely different things. Christians aren't (at least in theory) afraid to die. But you must understand that valuing life and not being afraid to die are not contradictory.
Dr Sario wrote:
Snoopy wrote:If, on the other hand, you believe that man is just an advanced animal who happens to talk and wear clothes, as evolution teaches, then it makes perfect sense to disregard some human lives while placing value on others. In fact, if we are all evolved animals, then there's nothing really wrong with killing the sick, weak, or stupid. After all, that would only increase the rate at which humanity evolves, right?
Yes.
Snoopy wrote:Please note, these above two paragraphs are not arguments for or against evolution. They are only meant to illustrate why some people hold human lives as valuable, while others do not.
Yes, I understood you. I don't hold human lives as very valuable. The intelligent ones who progress science, sure, I wouldn't want them dead. But the imbeciles who end up winning Darwin Awards, I rate them lower than the average dolphin.
Good! At least you're not as inconsistent as the other Darwinists I've met. So, since you believe that some human lives are more valuable than others, then you can't really have any problem with Hitler's persecution of the Jews, or the Eugenics program in the United States that sterilized individuals who are "unfit to breed", against their will. See, if you don't value all human life than you cannot logically argue against such atrocities.

As long as you recognize that you cannot fault Hitler for killing 6 million+ people, (which he did with inspiration from Darwin, by the way... read "Mein Kampf"), then I cannot accuse you of being logically inconsistent.
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