Your thoughts on gay marriage?

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aniwhovimorphian
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by aniwhovimorphian » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:35 pm

This topic has tuned into religious views. Buuut anyway, I don't agree with what you say, but I don't dissagree. As I said, I'm agnostic. There is no proof what you say is true and there is no proof that it isn't.

Oh, and aniwhovimorphian: Anifan+Whovian=aniwhovimorphian. I thoought of it when I was bored.
Only a day or two ago did I relize there where other names for animorphs fans than anifan. Anifan can also refere to anime fan, so other choices are always good. (e.g. Fanimorph or Fandalite bandit.)

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Tobias_Marco
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:10 am

aniwhovimorphian wrote:
“I acctually completely agree with most of the stuff you have said. Although you back up your points with what god believes is right, I back up my points with what I believe is right.”
<Really I can’t see a better way to do this. True this is about what MY thoughts are on the topic, so I should be able to back them up on “I feel it should be this way, so that is the way that I believe and that is good enough” however I think having a better foundation for why I believe a given way is important.>
<I think I did a good job covering that bit about the long hair, however in case anyone needed another example, just turn to Judges chapter 13, Samson’s mother makes a deal with God. The deal is this “You will give birth to a son, however he is not to eat anything unclear, drink any alcohol or get a haircut for as long as he lives.” All this is to show that Samson would be special.>
<God would not have told us that men should have short hair, then tell this one man not to get a haircut.>
“I apologise for sterio-typing you as the average christian. After all, don't we ll sterio type a little? It's what we're raised to do. We learn to not go near people who look like druggys or 'tough guys'. Then it grows on us. You were also sterio typing me as the average athiest (A very tiny bit.)”
<Apology accepted, and I am sorry for stereo typing you as the average atheist. As it is there are many atheists who read what I have to say on these issues and I am trying to address all of them when I type. Maybe I shouldn’t do it that way.>
“When I said 'it's like a game of telephone' I didn't relise it goes both ways. I have never read the bible, I was making points off what I have heard, also a game of telephone.”
<No I don’t want to address each paragraph one by one, however so far it is working out that way. If I keep it up, this will be one long post.>
<I have talked to many people about what the Holy Bible does and does not say. I think that between now and when we talk next you should try reading some of it, there are many plans available for reading through the Bible in a year. You could also try just reading a chapter at a time and seeing how long it takes you. If you don’t have a Bible and don’t want to buy one then you can go to www.bible.com and it will let you pick a translation and read through it. This is where I go when I want to show you atheists a Bible verse, I find it easier than typing the whole thing out from memory.>
<It is true that we have gotten off topic a little, we have gotten into more of “Why do you think the way that you do?” Not “What do you think on this issue?” You say that you are not an atheist, this means that you don’t believe that there is no god, however you could believe that you aren’t sure of if there is a god or not. I look forward to reading your thoughts on this.>
<Judging that the Bible is fake without reading it is like saying that I know for a fact that the bill in your pocket is play money even thought I haven’t seen it. I think almost anyone will agree that you will do much better in any debate if you understand the other person’s point of view. I try to understand your point of view even if I don’t believe it to be true myself.>
“Our minds are not capable of thinking about it. Even if there is, what did god come from? Everything can't go on forever, but there can't just be nothingness.”
<I have great practice in using my imagination and I tell you the truth “Anyone who says that God is something we can’t even think about is just saying that because they are looking for an easy way out.” Understanding God completely may be beyond my abilities, however I can work towards increasing my understanding. As for where God came from, consider this: Most atheists believe in “The Big Bang Theory” if not most, then at least a lot of them.>
< Christianity says “Once upon a time there was this big all knowing all powerful intelligent being that designed and created the universe…” this is said to be a Jewish fairy tale. On the other hand, The Big Bang theory says that “Once upon a time there was an infinitely small and infinitely dense ball of mass and then suddenly it expanded to create the universe…” Both stories have the same flaw in the beginning; they both depend on something that had no beginning. God is said to have no beginning and those who doubt his existence ask “Where did God come from, God’s mommy?”, This infinitely dense particle is also said to have no beginning, those who doubt its existence ask “Where did this thing come from?” Many have said that it is the last remains of “The Big Crunch” of the universe that came before, however that only moves the problem. If there was a universe before this one than where did the mass for it come from. You end up with a repeating cycle. A big bang accuses, a universe is formed, then it dies in a big crunch, however nobody can answer where the mass first came from. Every belief system, no matter what it is will have this problem. At some point you must have someone or something that had no beginning, and people will look at whatever you put there and ask “Yeah, but where did ____ come from?”>
alloran24 wrote:
“Tobias_Marco, well done. I read the entire post and I didn't read anything that I didn't agree with. I am a Christian as well and I just wanted to throw my two cents in on the whole debate.”
<Thank you, I aim to please. Well, no. That’s not true. I aim to correctly show God’s will on the subject at hand. There are a lot of people who aren’t pleased at all with what I have to say.>
<By the way, good job on your post; I thought all of it was well said.>
<Getting back to the real topic here: gay marriage.>
<Anyone who hears about this topic will have one of three views on the subject: They support it, they think it is wrong and shouldn’t be allowed, or they just don’t care one way or the other. Your reasons for choosing one of these is different from many other people’s reasons. I heard one person say that they support gay marriage because they though gay people had just as much right to be miserable as everyone else.>
<In my view that is a lousy reason to support anything.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by aniwhovimorphian » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:50 pm

I was thinking about reading the bible, I downloaded an app and read one version for about a chapter and a half. I lost what version it was. Every version is different. I found one that sounded like a game of pokEmon. I'm cought up on stuff and am just too busy to take time and read it. (No offense, I assume the bible is higher up in priority in your opinion.)

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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:52 pm

<Clearly a person who has the views needed to make the posts I have made must view it as good to read the whole Bible. However if all you want to do is point to different rules that God has given us and judge God on those rules then you should read Exodus chapter 20 and Leviticus chapters 18, 19 and 20.>
<Yes I do think you should read the whole thing, the point is to show us that God truly loves us and wants us to be happy. God, having designed and created humans knows what would make us happy. For example, say you came home and found that someone had broken into your home, killed your family and stolen everything you owned. Would it make you happy? Would it make the person who did this to you happy? If it made you sad yet made them happy would there be a net increase in happiness or a net decrease in happiness?>
<I'm just guessing here, however it seems to me that such a thing would make you very sad, and the small amount of happiness the bad guy gained would be short lived and so net happiness would go down. With this in mind God made rules not to steal and not to kill people.>
<Also God has a perfect sense of justice, he understands that if you make anything then it is yours, if you buy anything then it is yours, if you sell anything then it is no longer yours, if you steal anything then it is still not yours, put it back.>
<Satan is trying to steal the universe from the one who made it. Therefore the universe should still belong to God, he made it and he doesn't want to sell it.>
<This basic idea is behind many of the laws that God gives us. Honesty may hurt in the short term, yet in the long term we are better off for it. He also understands that bad things happen when we have sex outside of marriage or we mate with people who are too closely related, that is why Lev 18 is there. It is a list of all the people you shouldn't be having sex with. Other people the same gender as you and animals both make the list, so does your own mother and father, any of their children, your sister-in-law, your daughter-in-law and any uncles and aunts you may have.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by Sassy_Cat » Wed May 01, 2013 5:42 pm

I think it should be legal.
Image
Most of the defenses against it are weak or completely religion-based (not a theocracy). Plus, LOVE! C'mon, we all love love, and I love love with my lovely purple heart.
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by BabelFish42 » Fri May 03, 2013 10:22 pm

Tobias_Marco wrote:< What exactly is so horrible about homosexuality? Well to start off with there is the AIDS virus.>
WHAT. Homosexuality is NOT responsible for HIV. HIV evolved from a very similar virus in primates (SIV) that developed the ability to infect humans and crossed into the human population through blood-to-blood transmission when hunters were butchering bush meat. Then the virus spread primarily through unprotected heterosexual sex. The gay community was heavily affected, but they were not the only ones, and they were also some of the strongest advocates for developing treatments for the virus. The AIDS epidemic probably would have been much worse without their activism.

Seriously, TM. That is like blaming the Black Plague on the Jews. It's a pretty slanderous (not to mention totally inaccurate) thing to say. So don’t. Please. Just don’t.
Tobias_Marco wrote:< Number two on my personal list is lesbians, for every lesbian couple that is two woman who are unwilling to date nice guys like me.
You’re kidding, right? Right? Because…. who cares?? Women do not exist for the sole purpose of providing straight men with sexual partners.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<I have read the Bible for many years and I can say that God defiantly founds on gay marriage, he says so in quite a few places. If anyone is going to live there life off of what the Bible says then they have to agree that God does not support gay marriage, or wicca, or bestiality, or a number of other things we could go into.>
I'm pretty familiar with it too. But I don’t always agree with the way that mainstream Christianity interprets it.

Check out this guy's sermon:

http://www.upworthy.com/every-biblical- ... biblically

I think he makes a very strong case challenging traditional interpretations of the verses you've mentioned.

Don't forget that there have been many times in history that religious people completely misinterpreted what God was trying to tell them. (The super-legalistic Pharisees, the Crusaders, the church leaders who put Galileo under house arrest, the people behind the Inquisition, the pro-slavery crowd, the KKK, everyone who ever started a war in the name of Christianity, everyone who ever persecuted others in the name of Christianity, everyone who ever committed a terrorist act in the name of Christianity, and so many more.) They all were so sure they were right, but now we just look back at them years later and shake our heads in shame.

You seemed very surprised that I compared the current debate to the anti-misceganation (anti-interracial marriage) laws. Are you aware that many Christians supported these laws for religious reasons? They thought the Bible was very clear that a black person marrying a white person was immoral (just like you are very sure homosexual marriages are immoral).

Want to see what I mean? Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASF0rzfSvEc
(Make sure you watch it all the way to the end.)

And before them, many people supported slavery because they thought it was very clear that the Bible supported it.

All I'm saying is, be careful. We don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<Racial segregation, wtf? (First time I’ve ever used that one, prob the last), who was smoking what that day? God gave very clear rules for how to treat “strangers and aliens” and none of it had to do with racial segregation. That one is just too dumb to even work. Somebody needs to show me a verse before I’ll even touch that one.>
Exactly. It was a very dumb interpretation, and yet people were convinced this particular interpretation was right.

You want to see Bible verses? How about an entire webpage dedicated to explaining why interracial marriage is a sin based on the teachings of the Bible? According to this group, the very fact that God has created "different subsets of humanity" shows that people from different races were never supposed to intermix.

http://faithandheritage.com/2011/05/the ... egenation/

Here's another article published by the Southern Poverty Law Center (a human rights watchdog organization) about a church that still teaches that blacks and whites shouldn't mix, and that blacks are destined to be a serving underclass, all supposedly based on what's written in the Bible:

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politi ... ict-racial

What you're seeing here is only the modern day remnants of a mindset that was much more common in the last century. One of the many Biblical arguments used to justify racial segregation and discrimination was the idea that people of color were supposedly descended from Ham (you know, Noah's outcast son) and therefore cursed to forever be of low socioeconomic status, serving the other "higher" races. Disgusting interpretation of Scripture. But very widespread.
Tobias_Marco wrote:
BabelFish42 wrote:“What exactly is so horrible about homosexuality? If you can't answer that question for yourself, then what makes you so sure the anti-homosexuality verses don't belong in the same category as the anti-men-with-long-hair verses?”
First of all because the men-with-long-hair verses AREN’T IN THE BIBLE!!! So they don’t count.
It is in the Bible, TM:
1 Corinthians 11:14: “Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him?”
Tobias_Marco wrote:<If you are going to talk about something at least read it first. I’ve read more books on evolution than I can count, and I don’t believe it, I understand the theory and the arguments. If you are going to complain about the Bible then please do me the same courtesy. >
I’ve read the Bible from cover to cover, TM. And I’m not complaining about the Bible, I’m criticizing modern day anti-homosexual interpretations of it. You are just completely misunderstanding me.

Please do me the courtesy of not jumping to conclusions about me. Don’t assume that just because I accept evolution, I must be an atheist who knows nothing about the Bible.
Tobias_Marco wrote:< If the Bible says that men shouldn’t have long hair that Jesus would have followed that and would not have had long hair.
Actually, he probably had short hair, like most men of his day and culture. He probably also didn’t have the distinctly Caucasian features you always see in pictures. The pictures you see probably aren't accurate at all.
Tobias_Marco wrote:< <Why should the government make laws biased on my religious beliefs?>
< The question this topic asks is not “Should we make a law about gay marriage?” the question is “What are your thoughts on gay marriage?”>
Well, usually when people ask for your thoughts on gay marriage, what they’re really asking is whether you think it should be legal.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<I did not say that I thought that any government SHOULD make a stand on gay marriage; or at least not here I haven’t. That being said if I were in charge of making a law on such a thing I would define marriage as “A male and female human, both over the age of 24 Earth years of age, who come together before this government promising that they will be together for the remainder of their lives.” However I’m not in charge of making the laws, and I didn’t say there should be a law, I just gave my thoughts on the matter.>
But you’re a voting-age citizen. Maybe you yourself don’t make laws yourself, but millions of voters acting together do have an influence in how laws are made. And since that’s how you would make laws, then it’s probably safe to assume that is also how you want your elected representatives to make laws.

You oppose gay marriage for religious reasons, and you (presumably) do not want the government to legalize gay marriage mainly because it goes against your religious beliefs. Therefore, you want the government to make laws based on your religious beliefs. So my question still stands: why should they?

I think you’re missing my point with coffee and alcohol. Mormons traditionally don’t believe you should consume those things. And that’s fine for them to follow that belief, but I don’t think it would be fair for a Mormon government to pass a law that prohibited everyone – Mormon or not – from drinking coffee and alcohol. Likewise, I don’t think it’s fair for a predominantly Christian government to pass laws against homosexual marriage just because it goes against Christian beliefs.

(Same thing with fasting – most Muslims try to fast during the holy month of Ramadan, and good for them. But I wouldn’t want a Muslim government to pass a law that required everyone to fast; that wouldn’t be fair to non-Muslims.)

You completely missed the point I was trying to make about pork, garments made of more than one cloth, and men with long hair too. All I was saying is that it’s a double standard for Christians to put so much emphasis on some verses (like the anti-homosexuality ones) and completely ignore others.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<The Bible says that adultery should be punishable by death… if we kill the worst people in our society then we will be healthier as a people, and we will not have these destructive forces in our lives.>
Okay… so are you saying you actually would supporter killing anyone who cheats on their spouse? I hope the answer is no. If your answer is no, then why do you put so much emphasis on some verses (like the anti-homosexuality ones) while ignoring others (like the kill-the-adulterers ones)?
Tobias_Marco wrote:<Now first off let me say that Catholics and Christians are two VERY DIFFERENT groups. I don’t want you putting them together.>
As a (Protestant) Christian myself, I consider Catholics just as Christian as Protestants. Last time I checked, we all worship the same God.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<The Bible never said that the Earth was at the centre of the universe.”
No, but it talks about the 4 corners of the Earth, and has a lot of other phrases that made people think the world was flat. Kinda like how the Bible never actually says “two people of the same gender cannot get married” but it has a lot of other verses that make people think gay marriage is un-Biblical…. Just goes to show how traditional interpretations (whether they’re about how the structure of the solar system, or the morality of slavery and homosexuality) can turn out to be dead wrong.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<The leaders of the day felt that the Earth should be at the centre of the universe, so they taught that, then when science said they were wrong they were afraid to lose their hold on the people, and not wanting to lose their power they put people to death. Not cool man. Also, once again, Catholics, not Christians.>
Sorry, Catholics are most definitely Christians in my book. And besides, Protestants are doing the exact same thing today with natural selection and evolution, so I don’t see how they’re any better.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<Slavery: Yes, it is talked about in the Bible, in fact there are even rules for how the Jews were to treat their slaves. Here is the most important: nobody was to be a slave unless they were in debt, and then only for a limited time. You weren’t a slave just because of the color of your skin or the shape of your eyes, you were working off a bill that you didn’t have the money to pay for. It’s like what you see on TV or the movies, somebody goes to the restraint and eats this nice meal then they realize they can’t pay the tap because they left their wallet at home, so they end up washing dishes to pay for their meal.>
It was perfectly acceptable to sell your daughters to older men to pay off your debts (Exodus 21:7-11), not to mention the fact that slaves could be beaten, sold away from their families, and unwillingly "given" to men as wives/concubines. That has absolutely nothing in common with washing dishes at a restaurant. There is no comparison. None. Slavery in any society at any point in history is ugly and cruel and evil. Please do not ever attempt to justify it or sugarcoat it by saying, "Oh, it wasn't really so bad." The fact that the Bible condoned and regulated the practice of slavery, the fact that it was based more on nationality and socioeconomic status than race, does not and never will make it okay. And you're also forgetting the fact that the Israelites had foreign slaves as well, who were usually treated worse than Jewish slaves.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<God tells us that we are to be recognized by our love. That is the very opposite of what the Crusades were, and by the way, most of the Crusades was Catholics killing Christians. Thank you for that Pope.>
You can't blame the Pope alone. He had a lot of very enthusiastic followers. And please do not try to vilify Catholics either. Protestants have started their fair share of religious wars too.
Tobias_Marco wrote:
BabelFish42 wrote:“The questions you raise about the Bible's reliability and accuracy are all very good questions.”
<Agreed, however they have been dealt with! The Bible has been better preserved than any other written work, even those only half its age.>
Um... it has? I wasn't aware of that. Where are you getting this info from? Could you give me a source please?
Tobias_Marco wrote:<I want you to know that I have taken none of this personally and I understand feeling strongly about something. Just as you feel strongly for your side I feel strongly about mine. In that same way I feel strongly that I HATE being mistaken for the “Christian” that you have in your head. No true Christian thinks that way.>
What makes you think I have a certain “Christian” in my head? I grew up in a Christian family, attended Christian schools up through 6th grade, and have been involved in church my entire life. At least 60% of all my friends and family are Christians. I myself am a Christian. I know very well that Christians come in all different flavors. I know waaaaaay too many Christians to stereotype them like that.

I'm glad you're not taking this personally, because I do I like you a lot. But yeah... this is a topic that I have strong opinions about too.
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Fri May 17, 2013 12:10 am

I’m going to start off with saying that I am trying not to make any assumptions about people’s beliefs with regarding god, evolution, the soul or gay marriage with regard to each other.
It is theoretically possible to believe that some kind of god exists, that this god created the universe 14 billion years ago using ‘The Big Bang”, and then had life evolve from there. This god may tell you that all humans have souls, and so does ever dog, cat, ape, dolphin, and parrot on planet Earth. This same god could also tell you that everybody gets to go to Heaven so long as you never killed anyone.
This is not to say anything about my own personal thoughts on any of the above beliefs, if you think that any part of that is true or that another part is false then that does not mean anything about how right or wrong I think you are.
In the above religion there is a god, and the soul is real. Both things that I have made clear that I believe. I also said in the above that the big bang and evolution are true, yet I have clearly said that I personally believe them to be false. In the above I said that all humans have souls, and I believe that that part is true, however I also listed some other animals that may have souls, I choose not to say one way or another on this, because I am not perfect and don’t know everything. There are verses in the Bible that say that there will be animals in Heaven, does that mean that they have eternal souls or that God will make brand new lions, sheep and other animals? I really don’t know and even if I did, we are trying to talk about gay marriage right now. The only reason that I typed up any of the above is to say that I am sorry if I made any false guesses about the beliefs of anybody here.
Alright, so maybe gays aren’t responsible for the AIDS virus, or even it having spread as far as it has. I will admit that I am not an expert on everything and even if I spent all my time reading and learning I still could not know everything. Not unless I could take every book ever written back in time to the birth of the universe and start reading then, and if somehow I didn’t age at all. Only then could I read everything that the human race knows now. Think about it, even if I stopped aging right now and I was told that I would live forever, and I tried to learn everything that humans know, by the time I finished reading and learning it all we would have learned even more stuff for me to study.
As for each pair of lesbians taking two girls out of the dating pool for me to pick from, I was 9/10th joking and 1/10th serious; when I was growing up I didn’t get any love or respect from anybody. I was raised with everybody telling me that if the whole world were 90 billion females the same age as me, and I were literally the only male on the planet, then they would let the human race go extinct rather than let me date one of them. Where did they get off telling me that? It’s because a lot of people are jerks. I know full well that women are more than just mates, to be wives and mothers, for all the men in the world. I have always known that. The thing is that when I became a teenager that was just one more way that I was judged as ‘not good enough’ and it made me a very angry young man. No matter what I did or how I did it I was never good enough for anyone. If there were no lesbians in the world and every female who was looking for a mate was looking at the male population then maybe, just maybe one of them would look at me and realize that I had value, that I was “A diamond in the ruff”.
Granted today I am a married man, and therefore not looking for a partner anymore, however it is an issue that kept me up at night more than a few times growing up. However that being said there are other guys out there JUST LIKE ME, if you could look in every school in the world you would find a lot of guys just like Tobias. A lot of those guys will never meet their Rachel. It saddens me very much thinking of all these really great guys who are treated like gutter trash just because they don’t look good enough or aren’t strong enough.
As for the Holy Bible being misinterpreted; of course it has been, any written work can and has been misinterpreted. I heard a story once where an author spoke to a class full of students about the book he had written. One of the students got into an argument with the author about what the author of the book had meant by a certain part of the book. This guy wrote the book, he knows what he was thinking when he wrote it better than anyone. If he says that it means something then that is what the author meant by it.
So yes, I believe that the Bible has been twisted to say things that God never meant for it to say. If I really wanted to I could tell you that God wants each of us to kill our first born sons, or that it says anything else that I want it to, I just need to pick and choose what verses I want to take out of contest.
Yes, you have found a pastor of a church that supports gay rights and feels that they should be treated no differently than any different-sex couples.
“Similarly, secular humanist Paul Kurtz gives a more comprehensive and forthright affirmation of miscegenation when he states, “The highest good, as I see it, is intermarriage between people of different ethnicities, races, religions, and cultures.”2 “
I have a problem with this, the Holy Bible says very clearly that we “are not to be unequally yoked” now the problem here is what does that mean? I believe that it means that we are not to be married to anyone who is not of the same belief system that we are, and not to anyone who isn’t as strong in their faith as we are (give or take). It is not possible to scan someone and say “Your strength in your faith is only a 9.6, I’m a 9.9, so we can’t be together.” However I have read many studies that show that a marriage is more likely to fail if the couple is not of the same belief system. Pair a Christian with an Atheist and they are more likely to get divorced, pair a Buddhist with a Catholic and you face the same odds for divorce. Pick any two belief systems and if you pair them up there is a higher chance of divorce then if you pick two people of the same belief system. Intermarriage of people with different religions is not supported in the Bible, however if after you are married you find out that your mate is not a Christian then you are called to stay with them if they will still have you, in the hopes that you can convert them.
This by itself is not to say anything against other belief systems, only using two different systems together. There is a popular children’s toy called “Lego” they are very fun. Another popular children’s toy is “Play Dough” Each is fun by itself, yet they don’t work very well together. If I tried to make a castle, an alien or a dinosaur out of both it would not stay together as well as if I used twice as much of only one of these toys.
I see nothing wrong with people marrying between different ethnicities, races, and cultures, in fact at one point it accrued to me that of the few women that I had dated they had all been Caucasian. Maybe my next girlfriend should be of a darker skin color? I never did date a girl like that, however I was willing to if I could have found one that would have accepted me.
Moving on, I asked for a verse about the long hair vs. short hair, and you have given it to me. Good job on that one. I have somehow missed that one. For a little background on me I should tell you that the youth pastor (pastor who teaches just to children between the ages of 12 and 18) at the church I went to when I was a man with somewhat long hair.

“I’m criticizing modern day anti-homosexual interpretations of it. You are just completely misunderstanding me.”
Sorry, I’m only human after all, as I understand it misunderstanding each other is what humans do best.
“Please do me the courtesy of not jumping to conclusions about me. Don’t assume that just because I accept evolution, I must be an atheist who knows nothing about the Bible.”
This line here is why I said all that stuff up top, however the reason I said those things is that you were saying some stuff that was completely backwards from what I was taught about the Bible.
You are correct of course about Jesus not being Caucasian, I have always had a problem with that as well, or at least I have ever since I was old enough to realize that
a) Not everyone has the same skin color that I do.
b) Jesus came from a place where a different skin color was found.
I believe that things should always be shown as accurately as possible. If I am wrong about something I like to be informed of this as soon as possible so I spend as little time as possible looking like some kind of moron. Just think if how stupid I would look if for the last 8 years I had been saying that the USA has always only had old white guys as president, and that no woman or black person would EVER get to be president of the USA. (Please note that I have nothing against a woman or a person of any ethnicities, races, or cultures getting any job or place of power, when I vote I do not think about the person’s gender or how they were born. I base my vote on how I think they will vote in the future and how I want them to vote.)
“Well, usually when people ask for your thoughts on gay marriage, what they’re really asking is whether you think it should be legal.”
I am autistic, I tend to take things very literally, if that is the question that you meant to ask then you should have said so. “You should say what you mean, not just mean what you say.”
If someone asked me what flavor of ice cream I wanted for my birthday party, I don’t expect them to make all other flavors illegal or even for them to stop making any of the other flavors. What if I like 6 different flavors equally, yet I know that I can only have one of them for the party, I don’t want to get rid of the other 5 flavors. Also just because I don’t like your favorite kind of ice cream that doesn’t mean that I don’t support your right to choose it.
However being allowed to marry one person or another is very different then picking ice cream.
“All I was saying is that it’s a double standard for Christians to put so much emphasis on some verses (like the anti-homosexuality ones) and completely ignore others.”
I will agree that all verses should be given their due weight. If a verse says that I should act a given way, and if I believe that the Bible is the word of the creator God, then I should do what that verse says to do, or not do what it says not to do. However I should not try to force my beliefs onto other people.
“Okay… so are you saying you actually would supporter killing anyone who cheats on their spouse? I hope the answer is no. If your answer is no, then why do you put so much emphasis on some verses (like the anti-homosexuality ones) while ignoring others (like the kill-the-adulterers ones)?”
You aren’t going to like this. I am a married man, and if my wife were to cheat on me, or if I cheated on her, then this cheater has broken one of the most important promises that a person can make, they have proven that they can’t be trusted, and they are setting a bad example for everyone else. For these reasons and others, I would support them being put to death by the government. I would also support this for anyone who murders or rapes. By getting rid of these people we are stopping them from making these problems worse.
Let’s go back to the AIDS virus; What if nobody on Earth ever had sex with anyone who they weren’t married to, how much would AIDS have spread? If we were also following the Bible’s guidelines on the preparing of food, then not very far.
When I was a freshmen in high school I took a health class. One day we were each given a numbered card and told to put our name at the top, then we were told to get other children to sign our card. For every person who signed our card, we were to sign their card.
When the time was up they asked each of us to look at our cards, we were told that card number 6 had a sexually transmitted disease (STD) (I don’t know what number it was for sure, but we can pretend that it was 6). This person was told to stand up. Then they read the names of everyone who signed their card, each of them was to stand up. Then each of them were told to read the names of everyone who signed their card after they got the STD. Soon almost the whole class was standing, almost. There were two students in the back of the class room who didn’t stand, they had each signed each other’s card, yet nobody else’s.
Consider this, if one of those two had card number 6 then only those two would have had it. Isn’t it far better to only have one life partner? Of course this doesn’t say anything about who that life partner should be, it could be a male or a female or even the family dog.
Why should I impose my will on the people? Why should laws be based on what I believe is good and right? Because I never said that I was imposing my religion on anyone, only what I believe is right and wrong. If a million Christians vote one way and a million gays vote another way then we will have a tie. The law will swing to show the support not of what religion is the most true, but with what the most people think they want. If your side loses (and it doesn’t matter what the law is) then you can try again later.
“As a (Protestant) Christian myself, I consider Catholics just as Christian as Protestants. Last time I checked, we all worship the same God.”
Satan’s favorite trick is convincing people that there is no god, or that he doesn’t exist, his second favorite trick is making you think that HE is god. The Catholic church is set up more like a cult than any other ‘Christian’ group. Don’t believe me? Some time ago the Pope died, a new pope was chosen. It made the news on every TV channel and in every newspaper. Leaders of every country on Earth (with only a few exceptions) showed up to the funeral. Sometime later the Pope chose to step down and let someone else step in. Again, worldwide media coverage. During this same time there was a man who held the position of leader of the Protestant church, another the leader of the Baptist church, still another is leader of the Adventist church, and so on and so forth. Yet when is the last time the death of one of these men and women made the news? When was the last time the head of the Protestant church stepped down? Did it make the news?

“Kinda like how the Bible never actually says “two people of the same gender cannot get married” but it has a lot of other verses that make people think gay marriage is un-Biblical…. Just goes to show how traditional interpretations (whether they’re about how the structure of the solar system, or the morality of slavery and homosexuality) can turn out to be dead wrong.”
Leviticus 18:22 clearly says that a man should not have sex with another man.
Leviticus 18:23 clearly says that you should not have sex with animals.
Are you saying that we should make it legal for a human to marry a goat, a dog or a sheep?
What if someone told you that they wanted to get married to their poodle? Would you support that in the same way that you support a man marrying another man?
I took a logic class and I know that this is a logical faultily called “The slippery slope argument” just because we make it legal to have same sex marriages does not mean that we will ever make it legal to marry pets or farm animals, however it is something to think about. How far is too far?
Maybe this guy should not go to jail because he only killed one person, we should only arrest those people who have killed over a thousand people.
“And you're also forgetting the fact that the Israelites had foreign slaves as well, who were usually treated worse than Jewish slaves.”
Actually I wasn’t forgetting that at all, I just didn’t think it should be brought up at this time because I don’t want to get too off topic. The fact that one slave is treated better or worse then another slave has very little to do with if gay marriage should be legal.
“You can't blame the Pope alone. He had a lot of very enthusiastic followers. And please do not try to vilify Catholics either. Protestants have started their fair share of religious wars too.”
Very well, Protestants have started their fair share of religious wars too, now how many were started by each of the other sub-sections of Christianity?
“What makes you think I have a certain “Christian” in my head? I grew up in a Christian family, attended Christian schools up through 6th grade, and have been involved in church my entire life. At least 60% of all my friends and family are Christians. I myself am a Christian. I know very well that Christians come in all different flavors. I know waaaaaay too many Christians to stereotype them like that.”
Apologies if I have said anything wrong, you have gotten after me for making false guesses about you, that you believe that I have made based on what I have said. I am merely doing the same thing here. I believe that you have certain ideas in your head about me that are not biased on anything that I myself have said. I conclude that these false beliefs about me are driven by your own stereotypes. Where they come from I can not know for sure.
How accurate is the Holy Bible? It seems to me that a non-partial source would work best here. Preferably one without “bible” in its web address, the problem with that is that logic dictates that Christians are the most likely ones to try to get word out about this. I would love to show you a “secular website” that tells you that the Holy Bible has been proven to be 100% historically accurate; however I don’t think I will be able to find one willing to make that statement. Some of the sources below are better than others, however I felt that the more you had the better you would take it. Many of these are “Christian sources” and therefore you are less likely to believe them, however consider this: There are “Scientists” who have admitted to fudging data to get their work published. They admit to lying, yet they are seen as “credible” yet every day “Christian scientists” risk their jobs and their pay checks because they say what they believe even though it is not popular.
Here are some sources that you should look at:
http://www.forumterrace.com/Questions/Historically.html
“As quoted in the New York Times, Dr. Nelson Gluech said, "No archaeological discovery has ever been made that contradicts or controverts historical statements in Scripture." (Book Review, Oct. 18, 1956).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history
http://www.icr.org/bible-accurate/
http://clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/t ... iable.aspx
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html
http://voices.yahoo.com/is-bible-scient ... tml?cat=38
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/other-bi ... ament.html
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

aniwhovimorphian
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by aniwhovimorphian » Fri May 17, 2013 3:43 pm

8vyuivhj7t9ucghivu
I think I'm done. Any more reading of any sort is going to make my head explode. Sorry.

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Tobias_Marco
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Sat May 18, 2013 11:21 pm

I said something above that I think I should clarify.
Okay… so are you saying you actually would supporter killing anyone who cheats on their spouse? I hope the answer is no. If your answer is no, then why do you put so much emphasis on some verses (like the anti-homosexuality ones) while ignoring others (like the kill-the-adulterers ones)?
You aren’t going to like this. I am a married man, and if my wife were to cheat on me, or if I cheated on her, then this cheater has broken one of the most important promises that a person can make, they have proven that they can’t be trusted, and they are setting a bad example for everyone else. For these reasons and others, I would support them being put to death by the government. I would also support this for anyone who murders or rapes. By getting rid of these people we are stopping them from making these problems worse.
I'm going to use comic books to explain this position.
If you have ever been a fan of comic books then you know that Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and about a thousand other 'super heroes' don't kill people, even though some people have asked them 'why not?'
Do a little searching and you can find a comic book for every super hero where someone asks them why they don't kill people.
It goes something like this:
"Superman, why don't you just kill Lex now, then he can't escape from jail or get out on good behavior and do something like this ever again?"
"Batman, don't you realize that if you just killed the Joker when you had the chance he wouldn't keep coming back?"
The replies are always the same.
"I don't kill people, that isn't my place."

There in lies the secret. It isn't the job of police officers to kill people, however if the court system were willing to put them to death then they wouldn't keep coming back.
Here is a project for you; how many people have been raped by known sex offenders who had already served jail time for sex crimes?
How many people have been murdered by criminals who have already served jail time for murder?
If as soon as one of these people was caught we put them to death then the answer to both these questions would be zero, instead, these numbers are in the millions.
Even if you don't count the murders committed by people arrested for sex crimes or the sex crimes committed by murderers.
Superman, Spider-Man and Batman don't kill, its not their place, however I believe that a judge should have the power to sentence someone to death for some crimes.

As you can see my answer to your question was 'yes' and as such I put just as much weight on "Do not sleep with a man as one sleeps with a woman" as I do "Thou shall not commit adultery". So at least in that respect I keep to the Bible and I can't be called a hypocrite for that.
This does not mean that I am going to go out there and kill everyone who I think has broken God's laws and deserves death. That isn't my place. However if they ever ask me to vote on it I will support the death penalty. After all, I have 4 nieces and 3 nephews, how am I going to feel if one of them gets raped or murdered when the law could have stopped it by ending the person's life when we had the chance?
Yes I know that putting someone to death for adultery does seem a little harsh by comparison, however it would set an example to our children, an example that says that we have a strong moral back bone and there are somethings that we just will not stand for.
I just heard of a study that said that the happiest and healthiest people were raised with strict guidelines when it came to what is right and what is wrong.
Isn't that what we want for our children?
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by mostafahmed » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:32 pm

As the only muslim here (I think) this is how I would explain it. I am not an expert in my religion, but this is what my limited knowledge has. The quran (holy book) is very tricky and confusing to the new generation so there are many ways to explain what most verses explain. According to a fair number of priests it is only love that can keep someone with the same sex. So Sex in general is banned unless if it is for producing offspring. Why? Because it has a chance of many diseases. When it comes to gay sex it is even worse. So as long as you truly love a person, it is always fine to be with them. The main purpose of islam in our school books is equality and some other things then less important things. So I have no problem when I see gay LOVE. It warms my heart to know people truly love each other because my friends turned out to secretly hate and now I have to find new which is hard but I have new ones and it made me appreciate having someone to love which is the exact issue.
I am an Egyptian ...... What's your superpower?