Your thoughts on gay marriage?

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Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by aniwhovimorphian » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:36 pm

Weather it's for religious beliefs or not, what are your thoughts on gay marriage? I won't say my opinion until a couple people comment, I wouldn't want people not to post because I'm on a different side.

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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by BabelFish42 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:38 pm

To me, it's a no brainer. Legalize it.

Btw, I believe we already have a huge thread for this topic, over in the Politic forum:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=266

Enjoy ;)
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:02 pm

<Leviticus chapter 18:6-23 covers my view on such things.>
Leviticus 18:22
"It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man."
https://www.bible.com/bible/303/lev.18.22.cevdcus06
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by BabelFish42 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:13 pm

Tobias_Marco wrote:<Leviticus chapter 18:6-23 covers my view on such things.>
Leviticus 18:22
"It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man."
https://www.bible.com/bible/303/lev.18.22.cevdcus06
Okay, I hope you're not offended by this, TM, because I like you a lot. I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you, but I have to object here.

1) Even if you're personally against homosexuality, why should the government make laws based on your religious beliefs? I wouldn't want Mormon politicians to tell me I'm not allowed to drink coffee or alcohol, or Muslim politicians to tell me I have to fast during Ramadan. If that's your belief, then practice that in your own life. But what exactly gives you the right to force the rest of society to follow the laws of your religion, especially when the rest of society disagrees with them?

2) Leviticus also has verses that forbid people from eating pork and wearing garments made of more than one type of thread, and it says that adultery should be punished by death. Other parts of the Bible say women must always cover their hair, and men can't have long hair. Why put such importance on the anti-homosexuality verses while ignoring so many other Old Testament laws? Seems like a bit of a double standard, doesn't it?

3) Traditional interpretations of scripture do not always stand the test of time. Christians throughout the ages have a notorious record of misinterpreting/abusing Bible verses to justify whatever the current popular opinion on a political or cultural issue happens to be. Christians have used the Bible to justify everything from the geocentric theory, slavery, and the Crusades, to witch trials, racial segregation, and bans on interracial marriage. History has proven these people wrong time and time again. Jesus himself frequently criticized the religious leaders of his time for interpreting Biblical laws too literally and legalistically, while ignoring the suffering that their interpretations were causing to the people around them. In light of all the mistakes we've made in the past, I urge you to think about this rationally and with an open mind, instead of basing your beliefs on current teachings and popular interpretations. What exactly is so horrible about homosexuality? If you can't answer that question for yourself, then what makes you so sure the anti-homosexuality verses don't belong in the same category as the anti-men-with-long-hair verses?

Like I said, don't take it personally. I'm not trying to attack you, just your argument. And as you can probably tell, this is something I feel strongly about.
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by aniwhovimorphian » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:54 am

Tobias_Marco wrote:<Leviticus chapter 18:6-23 covers my view on such things.>
Leviticus 18:22
"It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man."
https://www.bible.com/bible/303/lev.18.22.cevdcus06

As babelfish42 said, You seem like a cool guy/girl, I don't want to insult you. But the bible also says children can be sold into sex slavery. Also, think of the basics, some random guy over 2000 years ago says he can talk to god and writes a book. Then, more people see that people believe him, and they want power, so they continue it, saying that they're also prophets. Sounds a little crazy to me. But that's the thing, It sounds crazy----> to me<-----;; it doesn't sound crazy to everyone. To believe in something is one thing, but if you judge other people from a book written over thousands of years ago, than I disrespect you, because you disrespect others for what they are. Oh, another point, if you think the bible was written by god, you're wrong. My proof? Let's say god is real, no matter what anyone believes, and he told man how to write the bible. Even then, over the thousands of years the bible has been law. And the kings had power. If they didn't like something, they took it out. If they wanted a new law, they added something. Not to mention all the re-editing put into it. there are thousands of different versions. I heard a comedian say that it's sorta like a game of telephone, the largest game of telephone in history. After all these points that I've made, the chance that god actually hates gays is less than 1%.

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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by BabelFish42 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:55 pm

aniwhovimorphian wrote:
Tobias_Marco wrote:<Leviticus chapter 18:6-23 covers my view on such things.>
Leviticus 18:22
"It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man."
https://www.bible.com/bible/303/lev.18.22.cevdcus06

As babelfish42 said, You seem like a cool guy/girl, I don't want to insult you. But the bible also says children can be sold into sex slavery. Also, think of the basics, some random guy over 2000 years ago says he can talk to god and writes a book. Then, more people see that people believe him, and they want power, so they continue it, saying that they're also prophets. Sounds a little crazy to me. But that's the thing, It sounds crazy----> to me<-----;; it doesn't sound crazy to everyone. To believe in something is one thing, but if you judge other people from a book written over thousands of years ago, than I disrespect you, because you disrespect others for what they are. Oh, another point, if you think the bible was written by god, you're wrong. My proof? Let's say god is real, no matter what anyone believes, and he told man how to write the bible. Even then, over the thousands of years the bible has been law. And the kings had power. If they didn't like something, they took it out. If they wanted a new law, they added something. Not to mention all the re-editing put into it. there are thousands of different versions. I heard a comedian say that it's sorta like a game of telephone, the largest game of telephone in history. After all these points that I've made, the chance that god actually hates gays is less than 1%.
Hey... so, let me try to explain the Christian viewpoint here a little. (Obviously, I'm not speaking for all the billions of Christians around the world, just the mainstream American Christians that I'm most familiar with. I was raised as a Christian fundamentalist, and I still consider myself a Christian, though I am definitely no longer a fundamentalist one.)

Christians believe Scripture is God-inspired. So, chances are, you aren't going to get very far with them by telling them not to trust the Bible; their entire belief system is based on it. The questions you raise about the Bible's reliability and accuracy are all very good questions, I'm just saying you're not very likely to change a Christian fundamentalist's mind with those arguments.

I think you're much more likely to get Christians to change their minds by encouraging them to question traditional interpretations of Bible verses related to homosexuality. Some people (usually Christians themselves) have made excellent arguments for why homosexuality should not be considered immoral or un-Biblical, like this young man here:

http://www.upworthy.com/every-biblical- ... biblically

And then, of course, there's the very obvious argument about separation of church and state: the government has no business creating laws based solely on the teachings of a particular religion. Personally, I think this argument is even more effective. When I was 12 years old, this was the argument that convinced me to change my position on gay marriage; I went from being against it (my parents' and my church's position) to being in favor of it. I just think the logic behind this argument is so obvious, regardless of what your religious beliefs are. It took me about 10 more years to change my mind about homosexual relationships being un-Biblical. I went from seeing homosexuality as definitely immoral when I was in middle school, to seeing it as just Biblically questionable in high school and college, to finally deciding there was really no good reason for me to consider it immoral when I became a young adult. I'm a little embarrassed it took me that long.

But the point is, I think the separation-of-church-and-state argument is a much quicker and more effective way to change religious people's minds than the homosexuality-isn't-immoral argument; I accepted the first argument instantly, while it took me nearly a decade to come to terms with the second one. However, the-Bible-isn't-reliable argument that you used is probably the least likely of the 3 to change people's minds (even though it is a good argument), because you're asking people to completely renounce, or at least seriously re-evaluate, their entire belief system, which, unfortunately, is something that most people are not willing to do (sad but true).
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by Tobias_Marco » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:04 pm

<I promise to do my best not to get offended, after all, everyone has the right to their own opinion. Just because I say something that doesn’t make it true and it doesn’t mean that everyone will agree with me. That being said I do try to stick to the truth, or at least my understanding of it.>

<Why should the government make laws biased on my religious beliefs?>
<First of all the founders of this country, the one that I live in (the United States of America), left where they were for many reasons, one of them being religious persecution. The question this topic asks is not “Should we make a law about gay marriage?” the question is “What are your thoughts on gay marriage?” I did not say that I thought that any government SHOULD make a stand on gay marriage; or at least not here I haven’t. That being said if I were in charge of making a law on such a thing I would define marriage as “A male and female human, both over the age of 24 Earth years of age, who come together before this government promising that they will be together for the remainder of their lives.” They also would not be able to get married until they had taken a yearlong class that showed that they understood what it meant to be married and what they were getting into. This would give them time to think about what they are getting into and it would lower the divorce rate. Also if given the chance I would make it a lot harder to get a divorce. Yeah there are some cases where a divorce is the best choice, he beats her, she slept with another man, it turns out he has a drug lab in the basement that she didn’t know about. In those cases the drug dealer should be put to death, thus ending the marriage, the Bible says the adulterer should be put to death ending the marriage and the other people can get a divorce, the rest of the couples can try to work it out, or go through 3 years of paperwork to undo the marriage. However I’m not in charge of making the laws, and I didn’t say there should be a law, I just gave my thoughts on the matter.>

<Your examples about coffee, alcohol, and fasting were good, personally I don’t drink coffee, however I have never told anyone that they shouldn’t drink it, unless I had some kind of medical reason to do so “Aren’t you a little young for coffee?” is one thing, “Biased on your health, it might be a good idea to stay away from coffee.” Is one thing, “Did you know that the caffeine in coffee is the tree’s own natural pesticide?” is one thing, “Drinking coffee is evil!” is another thing. I have never told anyone that I though drinking coffee was evil, however I have said the other things.>

<As for alcohol and fasting, I don’t think anyone should get drunk, if you are legally old enough by the local laws in your area then I will not try to stop you from having one or two drinks a night. I’ve done that myself (I’m over 30), however just don’t get so drunk you wake up with no idea where you are, what you did last night or who that is in the bed next to you. As for fasting, I have only told people it might be a good idea for weight loss reasons, I have never told anyone they should fast for religious reasons. If your think fasting is a good idea, then fine, just be smart about it. If you don’t want to fast, then that’s fine as well, I’m not going to make you.>

<Your next question is also a good one. Personally I HATE double standards, they are ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG! There are a few, a very few cases where they were alright, however they should be judged on a case by case biases. Yes, Leviticus does say not to eat pork, and new scientific studies show that cutting pork out of your diet would be a good idea in most people’s case. I have never heard of a doctor telling someone “You need to eat more pork or you’re going to die!” That being the case, you have no idea what my life is like, maybe I’ve never eaten pork before (not true by the way), maybe I read that verse one day and said to myself “Hey, I didn’t know that was here, I think I’ll cut pork out of my diet.” (Closer to the truth), or maybe I eat pork every day (not true). However one thing you can know is that I have never told anyone that they should remove pork from their diet for religious reasons UNLESS they asked me about what foods the Bible calls unclean.>

<I am smart enough to know that a lot of people don’t like being told what to do, and if I went around telling people what they should and should not do then I would not have very many friends. Here is a fun fact for you: Yes I am a Christian, no that does not mean that I am EVERY CHRISTIAN YOU HAVE EVER MET. If you want to ask me about an issue then I’ll do my best to guide you in the way I THINK is best, however I know that you have to make the choice.>

<As for garments made of two types of cloth, have you ever seen a shirt tag that said “50% cotton, 50% wool”? Of course not! They just don’t mix. God knows this, he was also trying to set an example (I’m getting into the danger zone, I’m guessing what God thinks and why he did things a given way!), we are to be a pure people, good and holy (holy: set apart for God), we are to keep away from things that are evil, we are to be spotless. I’m guessing the part about one kind of cloth was meant as a reminder of purity.>

<The Bible says that adultery should be punishable by death. Well I just know that SOMEBODY will be mad at me no matter how I answer this one. There are some people who say that death is too harsh a punishment for ANY crime, no matter how bad. Others say it should be reserved for only rapists and murderers. What does Tobias_Marco say? He says “Why do I get all these hard questions? Oh, right, because I’m trying to spread understanding about God’s word, and this comes with the job.” First lets talk about the death penalty, my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer some time ago, she was going to die. However the doctors cut it out of her and she is doing much better now. I think God sees sin much the same way. God calls his followers to love the sinner and hate the sin, however if it goes to far than it will spread. If my mom had just let the cancer sit there it would have spread until it killed her. Instead she had it cut out of her, killing those cells, and as a result the rest of her body still lives today. Likewise if we kill the worst people in our society then we will be healthier as a people, and we will not have these destructive forces in our lives.>

<That may seem harsh, as I type this there have been some bombings and shootings in the news lately. A lot of people have died. Not long ago someone told me that there have been 30 murders in my city this year alone, its only April. When you murder someone you take the life of an innocent person. If the government puts murderers to death then that saves the lives of future innocents who would otherwise be killed. A similar thing could be easily said of rapists; how many rapes would we prevent per year if we killed all the known rapists? I don’t know. Let’s look at adultery, they say that a man’s home is his castle, that would make the husband the king of the house and the wife is the queen of that house. If eather of them commits adultery they are betraying their spouse’s trust. What of the man who cheats on his wife, divorces her and marries the woman he chested on her with. How can this second woman know that he will not cheat on her with a third woman? God’s answer here is clear, if the man and the second woman are put to death for their crimes then there can be no third woman, and the people know that cheating could cost them their lives, so they are less likely to do so.>

<Now here is a question for you; Where in the Bible did you find a verse that says that men can’t have long hair? I’ve read the Bible for over 25 years and I don’t remember seeing that verse even once. (It might be in there and I just haven’t seen it) If it is in there then I have a very big problem, Jesus Christ was a perfect person, he followed all the laws perfectly, yet he is always depicted as a) having just been born, or b) having long hair. If the Bible says that men shouldn’t have long hair that Jesus would have followed that and would not have had long hair.>

<Yes there are a lot of rules in the Old Testament that we don’t focus on, many of them I will admit that I don’t follow in my own life. As human beings we must pick and choose our battles, if I was to fight for every verse in the Bible to be followed to the letter I wouldn’t have time for anything else, and I would still miss a lot of them. Don’t believe me? Just look at how much Christians are saying about the gay marriage laws and still not making progress, how much less would we make if we took a stand on not trimming the edges of your beard?>

<Traditional interpretations of scripture do not always stand the test of time. That would be why you don’t hear very much about the “don’t trim the edges of your beard” rule. It’s in there, however most of us Christians feel like we would be wasting our time pointing it out.>

“Christians have used the Bible to justify everything from the geocentric theory, slavery, and the Crusades, to witch trials, racial segregation, and bans on interracial marriage.”
<Now first off let me say that Catholics and Christians are two VERY DIFFERENT groups. I don’t want you putting them together. Catholics may say that they are Christians, however in my view that would be like if Michael Jordan called himself a baseball player. (look it up man, it was horrible)>

<The Bible never said that the Earth was at the centre of the universe. The leaders of the day felt that the Earth should be at the centre of the universe, so they taught that, then when science said they were wrong they were afraid to lose their hold on the people, and not wanting to lose their power they put people to death. Not cool man. Also, once again, Catholics, not Christians.>

<Slavery: Yes, it is talked about in the Bible, in fact there are even rules for how the Jews were to treat their slaves. Here is the most important: nobody was to be a slave unless they were in debt, and then only for a limited time. You weren’t a slave just because of the color of your skin or the shape of your eyes, you were working off a bill that you didn’t have the money to pay for. It’s like what you see on TV or the movies, somebody goes to the restraint and eats this nice meal then they realize they can’t pay the tap because they left their wallet at home, so they end up washing dishes to pay for their meal.>

<God tells us that we are to be recognized by our love. That is the very opposite of what the Crusades were, and by the way, most of the Crusades was Catholics killing Christians. Thank you for that Pope.>

<Racial segregation, wtf? (First time I’ve ever used that one, prob the last), who was smoking what that day? God gave very clear rules for how to treat “strangers and aliens” and none of it had to do with racial segregation. That one is just too dumb to even work. Somebody needs to show me a verse before I’ll even touch that one.>

<Interracial marriage: God did speak on this, but not for the reasons you might think. God told the Jews that he was giving them the promised land, there was just one little problem, there was already people living there. God told them that “The people who live there are evil in my sight, kill them all.” Remember what I said about cutting out a cancer to save the person? Same deal here. God wanted the Jews to kill every man, woman and child, so that the false gods and evil deeds would not spread. Guess what else? You can’t marry a corpse. God told them not to intermarry with the people that he told them to kill. Yeah a lot of people hate their in-laws and wish they could kill them, but then what would your husband or wife say when they found out you killed your father-in-law, your mother-in-law and all your brother and sister-in-laws?>

<God never said that blacks, whites, yellows and reds couldn’t intermarry, he told us “Not to be un-equally yoked” If you’re going to get married, that’s fine, just don’t marry an unbeliever!” I don’t care what your religious beliefs (actually I do care or I wouldn’t be typing this) you should be able to see the logic in this “Your marriage will go a lot better if you are both of the same belief system and have both been in that belief system for many years. In fact this is one of the lessons I’ve learned in my own marriage. Just because we are both Christians, that doesn’t mean that we are equally yoked. >

<I’ve refered to being un-equally yoked, but what does that mean? Before the first tractor farmers had ox pull this thing across their fields to do the same job that a tractor would do once it was invented. However it needed two ox to work right. You shouldn’t take a young ox and an old ox, or a young ox and a cow. You need two ox of the same age and size, or two cows, or two whatever animal your using. Having a Christian and a Wicca, or an older Christian and a younger Christian isn’t a good idea. Also when I say “or an older Christian and a younger Christian” that isn’t talking about physical age. I am about 30 years old and I have been a Christian for many years, therefore I am ‘an old Christian”, my wife is only a year younger than I am, yet she only came to Christianity a few years ago, so she is “a young Christian”, my advice to you is to only marry someone who is of the same religion as you, and who has belonged to that religion for more than ten years, and is about as developed in that religion as you are.>

<The witch trials: You though I was skipping this one didn’t you? I was saving it for last for a reason. I have met a few real witchs, these people are of the Wicca religion. I sat and listened to them tell me exactly what they believed, and I did not yell at them or tell them they were idiots or evil or that they were being led away by the devil. One of them even told me that I seemed like a very smart young man and there was a place for me in their coven if I was interested.>

<NO THANK YOU.>

<Just because I was showing him respect by listening to him and not calling him a Satan worshiping fool, did NOT mean that I would have anything to do with what they were teaching.>

<The Bible clearly says that witches are not to be tolerated, they are to be put to death. Anyone who uses tarot cards or oujia boards is playing with demons and is to be put to death.>

<Why? Well it all comes back to that cancer thing again. See these witches tried to tell me that we were both worshipping the same god, we were just doing it differently. However Jesus Christ had nothing to do with their beliefs. To me that was like getting a one dollar bill without George Washington on the front. I don’t know if you have ever seen a one dollar bill printed in the USA, if you haven’t you can look online for a picture of one. It has George Washington, our first president on the front, a few that don’t have him there are available, however they all say “This bill is not legal tender” An American one dollar bill without Mr. Washington on it would be a fake.>

<Let’s think about this for a moment. The universe is designed and created by an all-powerful god who then forms two very different groups of worshipers, to one group he tells them “This man Jesus Christ is important, in fact he is the solid rock that is the foundation of everything that you believe.” To the second group he say “Don’t worry about this Jesus guy, he isn’t important at all, so just ignore him.” Then he tells the second group that they are to WORK WITH the first group, because they can do things and been given gifts and powers not given to the first group. THEN to make things even nicer, he tells the first group TO KILL ALL MEMBERS OF THE SECOND GROUP!”>

<One of two things is going on here, God is bi-polar or the second group is following a fake.>

<Now if God were to say that there were two kinds of followers and each group would have different gifts and powers then I might be able to go with that, however for one group to be told to kill the other group makes no sense unless the two groups are really following different leaders. The fact that one group is told that something is the core of their beliefs and the other group is told that it isn’t important, yeah, that smells bad. One of them, if not both are wrong.>

<Looking back at my story of the King who built a city (the”Should God be glorified” topic, please read it) what if you live in a city and the King says “This is money.” And then you see something that looks different that someone else is saying is money? Where I come from you can get arrested for that.>
“I urge you to think about this rationally and with an open mind, instead of basing your beliefs on current teachings and popular interpretations.”

<That is a sound call for anyone to hear, and I hope that I have done so. However please try to remember, that just because you have heard some people say that “Christians believe this way” does not mean that we really do, and even if SOME CHRISTIANS do, that does not mean that all Christians do. Many Christians are a lot more sensible than you’ve been lead to believe.>

<I saw a comic about this not too long ago. Imagine that you have two different groups, circles and squares. In each group about 10% of them are loud-mouthed jerks that just like to fight all the time. You are a smart reasonably minded person from the square group, so you try to talk to someone from the circle group, however you find yourself talking to one of the circle jerk people. Now I am a smart circle person, and you think I am a circle jerk person when I am not, because all you’ve been hearing about is the way the circle jerk people act and you think that is how all circle people act, when in reality I want to strangle those circle jerks just as much as you do, if not even more.>

<The definition of a true Christian is “A follower of Jesus Christ”, as such I don’t care what the church has been saying for the last 2 thousand years, I care about what JESUS CHRIST said. If the church has been wrong for the last 2 thousand years, then we need to fix that. What did JESUS actually say.>

<If that isn’t good enough for you watch Star Trek The Next Generation “Encounter at Farpoint” Humanity is put on trial for being “A savage child race”. Captain Picard says “That could mean anything, we will only answer specific charges.” When given a list of the charges and asked to read them allowed he says “I see no charges against us here.”>

“What exactly is so horrible about homosexuality? If you can't answer that question for yourself, then what makes you so sure the anti-homosexuality verses don't belong in the same category as the anti-men-with-long-hair verses?”

<First of all because the men-with-long-hair verses AREN’T IN THE BIBLE!!! So they don’t count. If you are going to talk about something at least read it first. I’ve read more books on evolution than I can count, and I don’t believe it, I understand the theory and the arguments. If you are going to complain about the Bible then please do me the same courtesy. >

< What exactly is so horrible about homosexuality? Well to start off with there is the AIDS virus. Number two on my personal list is lesbians, for every lesbian couple that is two woman who are unwilling to date nice guys like me (Yes, I know, I am now married and off the market, however this really bugged me when I was on the market and I heard “I’m sorry, I like you, just not that way.” More times that I likes. However there are still lots of nice guys that don’t have a chance because women are too busy dating each other or jerks who beat them to death and the women are too stupid to leave the jerk and find a nice guy who would show them real love.).>
<I guess I can come up with more reasons later if you really want me to, and I'm sure you will.>

<I want you to know that I have taken none of this personally and I understand feeling strongly about something. Just as you feel strongly for your side I feel strongly about mine. In that same way I feel strongly that I HATE being mistaken for the “Christian” that you have in your head. No true Christian thinks that way.>

<Now on to aniwhovimorphian’s post, that I haven’t read yet.>

“As babelfish42 said, You seem like a cool guy/girl, I don't want to insult you.”
<Thank you, I respect that. Secondly, my rank is “Proud Uncle” that should give you a clue to my gender. Thirdly I don’t plan on being insulted, so as long as we don’t start name calling we should be good.>

“But the bible also says children can be sold into sex slavery”
Leviticus 19:29
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a w***e; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
<The Bible says that OTHER NATIONS sold their children into sex slavery, and that they WERE NOT to do the same.>

<Please read these verses before you start quoting them, or you’ll give me a head ache.>

<Please note that even thou several different humans were used by God to write the Bible non-Christian scientists have proven the Bible to be at least 93% historically accurate, with the last 7% unproven or unprovable, with 0% being disproven. There is also a HUGE lack of errors in the book given the number of pages written, not even Animorphs can say that, and all of the Animorph books were written during a 15 year period.>

“but if you judge other people from a book written over thousands of years ago, than I disrespect you, because you disrespect others for what they are.”

<I don’t disrespect anyone. I see them as people who make mistakes, the same as I do. It is possible to see someone make a mistake and still respect them. You should try it some time.>

“Oh, another point, if you think the bible was written by god, you're wrong. My proof? Let's say god is real, no matter what anyone believes, and he told man how to write the bible. Even then, over the thousands of years the bible has been law. And the kings had power. If they didn't like something, they took it out. If they wanted a new law, they added something. Not to mention all the re-editing put into it. there are thousands of different versions. I heard a comedian say that it's sorta like a game of telephone, the largest game of telephone in history. After all these points that I've made, the chance that god actually hates gays is less than 1%.”

<I love it! You just proved yourself WRONG! By law you have to call yourself an idiot and go to church every week for the next ten years!>

<Here is why: The Dead Sea Scrolls. Yes it is like a game of telephone, and it has been going on for about 2 thousand years, and I have seen some games of telephone get VERY MESSED UP! However imagine that you are playing a game of telephone and to everyone’s surprise the message HASN’T CHANGED at all. That is what the Holy Bible has done. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the same as the Bible at my house. The only difference is that my copy is in English. The best scientists in the world considered that very point and were ready to use it to smack me in the face with it, then they found out that THEY WERE WRONG! The words have the same meaning. The message has remained unchanged, preserved by God himself for the last 2000 years.>

BableFish42
“The questions you raise about the Bible's reliability and accuracy are all very good questions.”

<Agreed, however they have been dealt with! The Bible has been better preserved than any other written work, even those only half its age.>

“And then, of course, there's the very obvious argument about separation of church and state: the government has no business creating laws based solely on the teachings of a particular religion. Personally, I think this argument is even more effective.”

<As I said earlier, the question here is not how I think the laws should be, the topic is what are MY thoughts.>
“because you're asking people to completely renounce, or at least seriously re-evaluate, their entire belief system, which, unfortunately, is something that most people are not willing to do (sad but true).”

<Yeah, that can be sad. I agree. (I know you’re shocked to hear a Christian say that, well get ready for the disappointment.)>

<I have read the Bible for many years and I can say that God defiantly founds on gay marriage, he says so in quite a few places. If anyone is going to live there life off of what the Bible says then they have to agree that God does not support gay marriage, or wicca, or bestiality, or a number of other things we could go into.>

<I like these questions, it is good that you are asking them, however the Bible has proven itself in at least one area that you are ignoring, it is a historically accurate book that has remained unchanged over time.>

<Let me put it to you another way, I was talking with some people about evolution, I brought up the duck billed platypus, I said “If evolution is true than how could this creature exist? It is an egg laying mammal? If such a creature did evolve then there should be even more egg laying mammals, as it is there is only one other known to exist.>

<I was told that an answer to that question had come up from the scientific community, and that bringing up that point wouldn’t help my case.>

<In that same way, talking about “Oh, another point, if you think the bible was written by god, you're wrong. My proof? Let's say god is real, no matter what anyone believes, and he told man how to write the bible. Even then, over the thousands of years the bible has been law. And the kings had power. If they didn't like something, they took it out. If they wanted a new law, they added something. Not to mention all the re-editing put into it. there are thousands of different versions. I heard a comedian say that it's sorta like a game of telephone, the largest game of telephone in history. After all these points that I've made, the chance that god actually hates gays is less than 1%.” Is like if I said to you “Hey if humans evolved from apes, then how come we still have apes?” It just will not fly. In fact this is an even better example than the platypus, because the answer is so easy. The reason we still have apes is because according to evolution humans and apes evolved from the same ancestor. It would be like saying If I evolved from my cousin then why does my cousin still exist? The answer: You didn’t evolve from your cousin, you both evolved from your great-grand father.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

aniwhovimorphian
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by aniwhovimorphian » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:33 am

Okay, normally people say tl;dr for two paragraphs... but this? I guess I can try.

aniwhovimorphian
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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by aniwhovimorphian » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:12 pm

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookaaay. That was long. I acctually completely agree with most of the stuff you have said. Although you back up your points with what god believes is right, I back up my points with what I believe is right. I apologise for sterio-typing you as the average christian. After all, don't we ll sterio type a little? It's what we're raised to do. We learn to not go near people who look like druggys or 'tough guys'. Then it grows on us. You were also sterio typing me as the average athiest (A very tiny bit.)

When I said 'it's like a game of telephone' I didn't relise it goes both ways. I have never read the bible, I was making points off what I have heard, also a game of telephone.

We've gotten waaay off topic. I was asking your beliefs on gay marriage, not the entire bible. I, myself, am not an athiest. (My mom, dad, brother, and grandfather are, although my grandfather was baptised. My cousins are christian.)

I'm more agnostic. NOT as people would mock: "I don't believe in god, buuuuuuut just iincase."
However I am (Or was, you back up points very well. I'm starting to rethink this :? ) 98% sure the bible is fake. But who am I to judge? I haven't even read it.

Back on the topic that's off of the original topic, (Taking out anything to do with the bible) I believe there very well could be a god. Our minds are not capable of thinking about it. Even if there is, what did god come from? Everything can't go on forever, but there can't just be nothingness. It's the ultimate mindfuck.

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Re: Your thoughts on gay marriage?

Post by alloran24 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:52 am

Tobias_Marco, well done. I read the entire post and I didn't read anything that I didn't agree with. I am a Christian as well and I just wanted to throw my two cents in on the whole debate.

Aniwhovimorphian (btw, how did you come up with your name?) - some things about the bible that I feel you should know and consider:

The bible is divided into two parts: Old testament and New testament. The Old testament is exactly what it says: old. It starts with the creation of the earth and ends with prophecies about a coming Messiah. It's what the Jews still use as their holy book. The Prophecies were written a long time before the coming of Jesus, and the New testament begins with the birth of Jesus. He came and fulfilled all the prophecies written about years before his birth. This (to me) speaks to the authenticity that there was some divine being speaking to the prophets. How many times have you heard someone predict the end of the world just to see that day come and go? Not very reliable. These prophecies (something like over 400 different ones) were fulfilled by Jesus, from his birth to his death.

So, the fact that something was said to be divinely inspired, spoken from God to prophets, and those prophets spoke of so many requirements for a Messiah, and those requirements were completely met by Jesus, tells me that both are true. There's many pagan Greek sources that verified that Jesus did live on earth.

I don't know if that helps or just brings up more questions. I heard someone discussing how God reveals himself to people, and this was one thing they brought up.

Our universe is incredibly complex. The fact that even at a atomic level there is order and uniformity and complexity leads us to believe that this order was created by someone or some thing. If you have a closed system (an isolated area in space, with a random assortment of 'stuff') and allow time to pass, the system becomes more and more disorganized. This is called entropy. Seems to me to be the complete opposite of evolution. My argument is, seeing as naturally our universe is not ordered, something has to have ordered it. Someone built the sun, the moon, the stars, our earth, the continents, the plants, animals, and even you.

Here's another example of the same argument, if you toss a load of bricks from a truck, would they end up in a neatly arranged pile or a disorganized, strewn mess? For a nice wall to be created from the bricks, we have to choose to arrange them together, with a plan.

I believe that we've been arranged by a God much more intelligent than ourselves, with power to move the biggest mountains or change the tiniest atomic structures. The best part is, the things that he's revealed to us is that he cares for us, wants the best for us and wants to be involved in our lives.

I love talking about this stuff and debating, and if you have more questions just let me know.