Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Talk about religion here
Forum rules
Please read the forum rules carefully before you post.

If you like AnimorphsFanForum.com, please consider making a donation. Any donation will go towards the cost of the hosting, the domain and any other running costs.
User avatar
TF.
Poke'mon Master
Poke'mon Master
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:19 am
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Location: We can't tell you who we are. Or where we live. It's too risky... (Australia)

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by TF. » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:58 am

I'd be quite happy to argue with Blu, or anyone else. I'd reply to the OP but Current and the others have already blitzed that pretty well. I don't think there's even one point left that hasn't been torn apart. :(
Image Image Image Image

User avatar
Blu
Rampant Drunk
Rampant Drunk
Posts: 4650
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:07 am
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Location: Behind you

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by Blu » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:16 am

I think a debate between me and TF would be fun =)

User avatar
TF.
Poke'mon Master
Poke'mon Master
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:19 am
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Location: We can't tell you who we are. Or where we live. It's too risky... (Australia)

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by TF. » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:39 pm

Just like a battle between Gary's Umbreon and Bugsy's Scyther. Epic epicness! :) [/yet another attempted pokemon derail]
Image Image Image Image

User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by Current » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:58 pm

Oh yeah, Blu vs. TF should be fun to watch. This must happen.

watch me skilfully dodge the Pokemon derail
What is not the answer to this question?

User avatar
TF.
Poke'mon Master
Poke'mon Master
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:19 am
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Location: We can't tell you who we are. Or where we live. It's too risky... (Australia)

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by TF. » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:13 pm

Image

Bring it on, Blu.

Bonesaw is READY.
Image Image Image Image

User avatar
Tobias_Marco
Proud Uncle
Proud Uncle
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Favourite Animorph: Tobias
Location: Somewhere in the realm of time/space

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by Tobias_Marco » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:07 pm

<Male swans are the only birds with penises, and the praying mantis is the only insect that can't turn it's head.>
<Why is that?>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by Current » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:53 pm

As for swans, it isn't. Ducks, geese, ostriches, emus, flamingoes, kiwis and tinamous all have penises. There might be others, those are just the ones a quick search revealed (though I already knew about ducks).

Regarding the mantis, I'm somewhat suspicious, but regardless. Assuming it is true, it'd probably be because whatever mutation that rendered the mantis unable to turn its head occurred after it split from its closest evolutionary relative.

Why is this relevant to the discussion?
What is not the answer to this question?

User avatar
Blu
Rampant Drunk
Rampant Drunk
Posts: 4650
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:07 am
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Location: Behind you

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by Blu » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:26 am

Current is correct. After reading up I found out that birds of the superorder Palaeognathae all have penises. Within the superorder Neognathae those are birds with and without penises. Flamingoes and birds of the order Anseriforme (Swans included) also have penises. Other birds lack teh penis.

Using phylogentics, we can put the bird orders on an evolutionary tree. After plotting this tree, we can see where the evolutionary change must have taken place by plotting them down, as shown on the graph I drew below.
001.jpg
As you can see, modern birds are split into two superorders, Palaeognathae and Neognathae, which likely had a commone ancestor. All Palaeognathae have no penis. We can therefore say that the lack of a penis came about on the neognathae side. According to modern data, the lack of a penis appears to have evolved twice, as at least two orders of birds within the Neognathae superorder still have a penis present (including swans).

Question answered. Same idea applies to the mantis. Again, I don't see how pointing out difference in species disproves evolution, seeing as this is exactly what evolution predicts.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Tobias_Marco
Proud Uncle
Proud Uncle
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Favourite Animorph: Tobias
Location: Somewhere in the realm of time/space

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by Tobias_Marco » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:47 am

<It seems that in this case my information is not as good as I thought it was.>
<You win this round. However I think I am going to win the next round.>
<The reason that I thought it was relevant had to do with the idea that you think that birds came from dinosaurs, I know that reptiles do have penises, if reptiles have penises and birds don't then why is that?>
<If no birds have penises, except swans, then why did the penis come back in the swans?>
<It seems to me that the penis is very complicated, not as complicated as the eyeball maybe, but it seems odd to me that the eye would just evolve all at once.>
<Why is it that we don't have evidence of a creature with only half an eye formed?>
<It would serve no useful purpose, but after many mutations it would become a very useful part indeed.>
<Why did one insect lose this very useful ability to turn his/her head?>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: Where Evolution falls short - Please read first post

Post by Current » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:50 pm

A quick googling told me you got it backwards. The mantis is the only insect that can turn its head, or so they say. Not sure if they are the only one, but at any rate they can, see here.

As for the evolution of the eye, it's been studied extensively since Darwin himself. The eye didn't evolve all at once, it went through several stages starting as a simple photosensitive cell. Here.
What is not the answer to this question?