The Great Flood

Talk about religion here
Forum rules
Please read the forum rules carefully before you post.

If you like AnimorphsFanForum.com, please consider making a donation. Any donation will go towards the cost of the hosting, the domain and any other running costs.
User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Current » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:10 am

Tobias_Marco wrote:<Actually the "growing Earth thing" is NOT a "violations of natural law", I found it in The Kingfisher Science Encyclopedia.>
You said that the Earth got bigger because God spontaneously made the Earth's core less dense. That's invoking a miracle, i.e. a violation of natural law.

What you found in the Kingfisher Encyclopedia is a few bits of data that you interpreted as saying the Earth is growing. One alternative explanation for that is what I replied the first time:
Current wrote:...the conclusion I get is that tectonic plates shift around and aren't perfectly rigid.
Your hypothesis requires extra matter or changes in density, and mine doesn't. Also, as far as I know (my knowledge of geology is pretty basic), your interpretation isn't shared by most scientists who are aware of the facts you quoted. That leads me to believe that you are misinterpreting the data, though I am open to being shown I'm wrong.

<As for showing the math, I did quote the book as saying how many inches the Earth is getting bigger per year.>
<What more do you want?>
I don't want more. I know how the relation between radius and circumference works, I'm not disputing that point at all. I just mentioned, in passing, that basic maths like that is better supported by equations than by authority (provided of course the person you're talking to can follow the math). It's a general point, not specific to the argument
<Find, here it is, I am really Professor Stephen W. Hawking, I believe in the Bible, and I am trying to show you the truth in terms that you can understand.>
<You didn't buy that for a second, did you?>
Well, no. For one, Hawking is an atheist. I'm not sure what your point is.
<I have read many topics even here on AFF where people have shown all the math and it gets tossed out because the person reading it didn't understand it.>
Possibly, but that wasn't me. I did disagree with the use of math in at least two occasions that I recall, but I was rejecting the underlying assumptions, not the math itself.
<What is the point of showing my work if you just toss it out anyway?>
You haven't shown your work. On the Kingfisher point, you just stated your interpretation of the bits of data. On the Vos Savant point, you quoted someone who quoted someone else who had done the work.
<This is a book that talks about how humans evolved from single celled life forms, and I am showing you that even it points to a creator and you are treating it like horse crap!>
No, I am saying that you are misunderstanding the book. It's your interpretation that is horse crap, to borrow your phrase.
<What you are really doing is discarding ANY source, no matter what it is because you are unwilling or unable to face that you could be wrong.>
<I AM WILLING TO BE WRONG!!!>
<I just have yet to see proof that I am.>
I could say the exact same thing, and you'd be as sceptical of me as I am of you. I don't even think you're lying, just that you underestimate your ability to change your mind on this subject.

Here's a challenge, when is the last time you changed your mind about an important aspect of your worldview?
What is not the answer to this question?

User avatar
Tobias_Marco
Proud Uncle
Proud Uncle
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Favourite Animorph: Tobias
Location: Somewhere in the realm of time/space

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Tobias_Marco » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:01 pm

<I have a problem, this kind of thing happens to me all the time. I read a lot, and am very smart, and sometimes I try to explain something and I forget that not everyone sees things like I do. I think that I am being as clear as glass and they only see mud.
I explain all of the sciences behind what I am saying but for some reason the person I am talking to just doesn’t get it.>
<So I try explaining it more scientifically, but then I just lose them faster, then I try dumb-ing it down into layman’s terms, but I guess I don’t go far enough, or I go way too far and they still don’t understand.>
<Sometimes I will get lucky (once every thousand times) and after an hour and a half they will say “wait a minute, couldn’t these facts also be interpreted this way?” and then they will say exactly what I have been working so hard to explain to them.
Then I will say, “Yes, that’s just what I have been trying to tell you.”
Then they will say, “No it’s not, you were talking about something completely different.”
Five minutes latter I say “whatever” and am just glad that they got the original point.
All in all it is VERY frustrating.>
<On average this happens to me about 15 times per day.>
<If I am completely honest with myself the fictional character that I am most like is Brainy Smurf, he is always talking, he always thinks that he is right, and NOBODY ever listens to him, due mostly to the fact that they think that he is boring and they don’t think they would understand even if they took the time to listen. Also, Brainy Smurf is very full of himself, but I try not to be too full of myself, but I guess I have my moments.>

<Now on to the matter at hand!>
<The way I see it there are two ways that things can expand, it can expand like a balloon, or it can expand like a loaf of bread. If you buy a pack of balloons and open it up and pull one out of your favorite color and put it in fount of you, it will have air in it, not much, but some. If you blow into it then the balloon will have even more air in it.
If you blow it up all the way and tie it off then it will be nice and round.
However the amount of rubber that makes up the balloon will remain unchanged from when you took it out of the package, to when you tied it off. However it now has a larger surface area and a greater diameter. Why? Because more mass has been added to the inside. This has increased the pressure and has stretched the outer layer and the outer layer has gotten thinner as a result.>
<I think that you have misunderstood me, and this is what you think that I said is happening to the Earth, that God is bringing in new mass from the outside somehow.
This is not what I was trying to say at all.>
<The Earth is more like a loaf of bread. If you go into your kitchen and pull out a bread recipe, then pull out flour, eggs, and any other things that you need you can mix them up in a bowl and make dough. Then you put this dough into a greased pan and cover it with a cloth, the recipe says to let the dough rise for one to two hours, so you set the timer for two hours then log into AFF to see if anyone has responded to your posts, and you play the forum games.>
<As the Earth/bread sits it expands, the Earth is covered by tectonic plates, when ‘plate A’ sides under ‘plate B’, part of ‘plate A’ melts and becomes magma. On the other side of ‘plate A’, it is moving away from ‘plate C’, this creates an opening in the Earth that magma comes out of, some of this magma cools and becomes part of ‘plate A’ and some of it cools and becomes part of ‘plate C’.>
<According to the book I sited earlier the net growth (after the loss of ‘plate A’ melting under ‘plate B’) this adds about 5 to 5.5 inches to the Earth’s circumference every year. (1->1.5 inches + 4 inches = 5 inches ->5.5 inches)
As this Earth/bread gets bigger the surface area is stretching, but it is also gaining mass from the inner layer. This means that if the inner layer is giving mass to the outer layer that the inner layer must then be losing mass.>
<We now have the outer layer gaining mass and surface area, and the inner area losing mass, yet gaining area, therefore there is less pressure.>
<Boyle’s law says that if the surface area is increasing and the mass inside stays the same then the pressure will decrease or if mass is removed from the system, but the surface area stays the same then the pressure will decrease. There for if the surface area increases and the mass within the inner layer decreases then the over all pressure will go down.>

<Less pressure means less dense, am I right there or am I not understanding something, or just not being clear here.>

< The whole reason I’m posting this is because you didn’t see how the inner layer giving mass to the outer layer meant that there could be more surface area without the introduction of new mass from an outside source. I hope that I have done that, as it is very frustrating for me to explain things over and over again and nobody understand me. Sometimes I feel like I am from another planet, not even my own family understands me most of the time.>
<That is why I don’t post here more often, I want to show you the truth as I see it, but I end up going around in circles because nobody on this planet speaks my language.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

User avatar
Tobias_Marco
Proud Uncle
Proud Uncle
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Favourite Animorph: Tobias
Location: Somewhere in the realm of time/space

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Tobias_Marco » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:06 pm

<Find, here it is, I am really Professor Stephen W. Hawking, I believe in the Bible, and I am trying to show you the truth in terms that you can understand.>
<You didn't buy that for a second, did you?>
"Well, no. For one, Hawking is an atheist. I'm not sure what your point is."
<My point here was that I was letting myself become frustrated and I felt like even the smartest person in the world couldn't show you the truth and have you see it as truth.>
<Not the best way to debate anything, but at the end of the day we are all only human, even if we don't feel like it some times.>
Here's a challenge, when is the last time you changed your mind about an important aspect of your worldview?
<I am going to think about that one and get back to you, however as I am doing that, I want to see if you can answer the same question about yourself.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Current » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:39 pm

Tobias_Marco wrote:<I have a problem, this kind of thing happens to me all the time. I read a lot, and am very smart, and sometimes I try to explain something and I forget that not everyone sees things like I do. I think that I am being as clear as glass and they only see mud.
I explain all of the sciences behind what I am saying but for some reason the person I am talking to just doesn’t get it.>
<So I try explaining it more scientifically, but then I just lose them faster, then I try dumb-ing it down into layman’s terms, but I guess I don’t go far enough, or I go way too far and they still don’t understand.>
<Sometimes I will get lucky (once every thousand times) and after an hour and a half they will say “wait a minute, couldn’t these facts also be interpreted this way?” and then they will say exactly what I have been working so hard to explain to them.
Then I will say, “Yes, that’s just what I have been trying to tell you.”
Then they will say, “No it’s not, you were talking about something completely different.”
Five minutes latter I say “whatever” and am just glad that they got the original point.
All in all it is VERY frustrating.>
Believe it or not, I understand you. Not a daily occurrence for me, but often enough I try to explain something and people don't understand a word I'm saying.
<Now on to the matter at hand!>
<The way I see it there are two ways that things can expand, it can expand like a balloon, or it can expand like a loaf of bread. If you buy a pack of balloons and open it up and pull one out of your favorite color and put it in fount of you, it will have air in it, not much, but some. If you blow into it then the balloon will have even more air in it.
If you blow it up all the way and tie it off then it will be nice and round.
However the amount of rubber that makes up the balloon will remain unchanged from when you took it out of the package, to when you tied it off. However it now has a larger surface area and a greater diameter. Why? Because more mass has been added to the inside. This has increased the pressure and has stretched the outer layer and the outer layer has gotten thinner as a result.>
<I think that you have misunderstood me, and this is what you think that I said is happening to the Earth, that God is bringing in new mass from the outside somehow.
This is not what I was trying to say at all.>
<The Earth is more like a loaf of bread. If you go into your kitchen and pull out a bread recipe, then pull out flour, eggs, and any other things that you need you can mix them up in a bowl and make dough. Then you put this dough into a greased pan and cover it with a cloth, the recipe says to let the dough rise for one to two hours, so you set the timer for two hours then log into AFF to see if anyone has responded to your posts, and you play the forum games.>
<As the Earth/bread sits it expands, the Earth is covered by tectonic plates, when ‘plate A’ sides under ‘plate B’, part of ‘plate A’ melts and becomes magma. On the other side of ‘plate A’, it is moving away from ‘plate C’, this creates an opening in the Earth that magma comes out of, some of this magma cools and becomes part of ‘plate A’ and some of it cools and becomes part of ‘plate C’.>
<According to the book I sited earlier the net growth (after the loss of ‘plate A’ melting under ‘plate B’) this adds about 5 to 5.5 inches to the Earth’s circumference every year. (1->1.5 inches + 4 inches = 5 inches ->5.5 inches)
As this Earth/bread gets bigger the surface area is stretching, but it is also gaining mass from the inner layer. This means that if the inner layer is giving mass to the outer layer that the inner layer must then be losing mass.>
<We now have the outer layer gaining mass and surface area, and the inner area losing mass, yet gaining area, therefore there is less pressure.>
<Boyle’s law says that if the surface area is increasing and the mass inside stays the same then the pressure will decrease or if mass is removed from the system, but the surface area stays the same then the pressure will decrease. There for if the surface area increases and the mass within the inner layer decreases then the over all pressure will go down.>

<Less pressure means less dense, am I right there or am I not understanding something, or just not being clear here.>

< The whole reason I’m posting this is because you didn’t see how the inner layer giving mass to the outer layer meant that there could be more surface area without the introduction of new mass from an outside source. I hope that I have done that, as it is very frustrating for me to explain things over and over again and nobody understand me. Sometimes I feel like I am from another planet, not even my own family understands me most of the time.>
<That is why I don’t post here more often, I want to show you the truth as I see it, but I end up going around in circles because nobody on this planet speaks my language.>
OK, I get you now. You threw me off when you said
then [God] used some of the core mass of the Earth to build up the surface area
I thought you meant that God simply decided to move the mass from the core around.

I still don't buy your idea, though. I've been looking around, and changes in radius of that magnitude should be measurable. People have looked for them and found nothing. (See here)
What is not the answer to this question?

User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Current » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:16 pm

Tobias_Marco wrote:
Here's a challenge, when is the last time you changed your mind about an important aspect of your worldview?
<I am going to think about that one and get back to you, however as I am doing that, I want to see if you can answer the same question about yourself.>
Sure. I don't have a precise timeline, but all of these happened within the last ten months:
I used to believe in subjective ethics, now I'm a moral realist.
I abandoned my belief in non-determinism. I'm not entirely convinced still the universe is completely deterministic, but it's my best guess.
I used to think cryonics was sci-fi nonsense, now I'm considering signing up as soon as I can afford it.
I changed what I think is my gender identity.

Those are the ones that spring most readily to mind. I'm not exactly sure when each happened (some were gradual processes with no specific turning point), but I know the ten month figure is accurate.
What is not the answer to this question?

User avatar
Tobias_Marco
Proud Uncle
Proud Uncle
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Favourite Animorph: Tobias
Location: Somewhere in the realm of time/space

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Tobias_Marco » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:24 am

Current wrote:
Tobias_Marco wrote:<I have a problem, this kind of thing happens to me all the time. I read a lot, and am very smart, and sometimes I try to explain something and I forget that not everyone sees things like I do. I think that I am being as clear as glass and they only see mud.
I explain all of the sciences behind what I am saying but for some reason the person I am talking to just doesn’t get it.>
<So I try explaining it more scientifically, but then I just lose them faster, then I try dumb-ing it down into layman’s terms, but I guess I don’t go far enough, or I go way too far and they still don’t understand.>
<Sometimes I will get lucky (once every thousand times) and after an hour and a half they will say “wait a minute, couldn’t these facts also be interpreted this way?” and then they will say exactly what I have been working so hard to explain to them.
Then I will say, “Yes, that’s just what I have been trying to tell you.”
Then they will say, “No it’s not, you were talking about something completely different.”
Five minutes latter I say “whatever” and am just glad that they got the original point.
All in all it is VERY frustrating.>
Believe it or not, I understand you. Not a daily occurrence for me, but often enough I try to explain something and people don't understand a word I'm saying.
<Well at least now we understand each other a little better, and that makes me feel better.>
<I was a little worried about the balloon vs. bread thing.>
<Someone complained a while back that I use illustrations like that a little too much and that I don't make them very clear.>
<At least right now we understand each other and you have come back with information that says I am wrong about the expanding Earth thing.>
<Oh, well.>
<In review, I believe that about 6000 years ago there was a flood that killed off every human being that was alive at the time, leaving just a family of 8 humans alive in a very big boat, or ship.>
<Scientists say that there is not enough water on the planet right now to cover the whole Earth.>
<If both these things are true then the Earth must have gotten bigger, so that less water would be needed or water must have left the planet.>
<Scientists say that the size of the Earth has not changed enough to make that kind of difference.>
<Logic dictates two things, first that this will frustrate me, seeing as I am a human being in a debate and I have hit what seems to be a dead end.>
<Secondly, the flood could have still happened, if I can explain where all the water went to.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

User avatar
Tobias_Marco
Proud Uncle
Proud Uncle
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Favourite Animorph: Tobias
Location: Somewhere in the realm of time/space

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Tobias_Marco » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:32 am

Here's a challenge, when is the last time you changed your mind about an important aspect of your worldview?
<Having though about it I am reminded of my brother, his name is Grease Monkey (not really, but just work with me here), when I left the Army I needed to find a place to live, at the same time he was also looking for a place to live.>
<Logic dictated that we work together, maybe we could be room mates somewhere and split the rent?>
<That is what we did.>
<Then he told me something that blew my mind.>
<Due to the fact that I am the weirdest member of our family, his words not mine, if I could not deal with his secret then nor could anyone else in our family.>
<He only shared this with me so that he could be more comfortable around the house.>
<My brother is "Trans-gendered" this means that even though he was born male, he sees himself as female.>
<He told me this so that he could walk around the house wearing fake breasts and women's clothing.>
<This feels 'right' to Grease Monkey, on the other hand, dressing as a man feels 'wrong somehow', as if dressing as a male is a lie.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Current » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:44 pm

What exactly is it that you changed your mind about? Your brother? Your position towards transfolk?
What is not the answer to this question?

User avatar
Tobias_Marco
Proud Uncle
Proud Uncle
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Gender: [Male][/Male]
Favourite Animorph: Tobias
Location: Somewhere in the realm of time/space

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Tobias_Marco » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:28 am

<A little of both, mostly how I view my brother/(sister?).>
<I will not tell you that I fully embrace this part of his/(her?) life, because that would be a lie.>
<However I at least think about this more, and am trying to see the world as others see it.>
<In that respect I guess it is not the best example, I will not be marching in any parades on Grease Monkey's behalf, however my world view is still changed, even if it is not yet as much as you were hoping for.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

User avatar
Current
Eldritch Abomination
Eldritch Abomination
Posts: 1780
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Favourite Animorph: Rachel
Location: Southwestern quartersphere

Re: The Great Flood

Post by Current » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

I can tell you don't fully embrace it, partly because we've had other conversation on the subject, partly because otherwise you'd be calling her your sister.

But anyway, the point of the exercise was trying to show you something. Virtually everyone considers themselves open-minded and capable of shifting their views based on evidence. And most of them radically overestimate themselves on this point. I know I did, and it's possible I still do. There's no ideal measure, but the one thing that can get you an idea of how open-minded you are is seeing how often you change your mind, on what subjects, and due to what experiences. It's only a rough idea, but it's better than nothing.

For me, I can tell you that before a certain learning experience that started 10 months ago, I had changed my mind on major stuff maybe once or twice in several years. There's a billion ways to justify it while preserving self-image, I'm sure you can think of some, but ultimately it added up to that I wasn't strict enough with my mental processes.

You may have that same problem, or not. That's not for me to decide. Regardless of what I might think on the subject, you won't change just because someone else told you to. The exercise was to give you something to think about. On the hypothetical case that you are not as open-minded as you think, that you are honest enough with yourself to admit it, and that you are good enough at noticing self-deception that you realise it, it can prompt you to think about it more and possibly decide you need to do something about it. If this exercise taught you nothing new, then maybe you are as open-minded as you think. Or maybe you aren't and simply can't notice it.
What is not the answer to this question?