Past lives and Reincarnation

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Luna May
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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Luna May » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:35 pm

Gahhhhhh, I hate it when my posts are erased ><

With that said, let's get started. I hope I remember the main points.
Tobias_Marco wrote:<In this case it means choosing the correct religion.>
Please, no more analogies, they drive me nuts!
<To set a few things as streght as I can right now, you asked why God would torture his own sone. The answer is that God did not.>
Didn't you say that God can be held responsible for everything that ever was, is or will be ever?
<If you read the first 5 books of the Old Testament
Sure I did, in primary school. They cut out most of the stuff they didn't think little kids should see, such as the story of Dina, but we learned the basics. And then we were promptly thrown into the charming tales of King David and his family (the story of Amnon and Tamar scomes to mind... euch).
you will see what the Jews are to do to sacrifice a lamb.
Yup, nothing satisfies a superpowerful deity better than the smell of charred vestiges of an infant sheep's flesh drifting in the dusty Mediterranian breeze. In fact, it was such common knowledge, that every religion with an ounce of self-respect seemed to be doing it. Pointless death was always quite fashionable. That's probably why avery singe civilization I can think of exercized it at some point.
No where in there does it tell them to do anything that would look like torture if done to a human being.
Sure, I cut babies' throats out all the time...
True they do kill the lamb and then set it's body on fire.
How lovely. I'm sure the lamb's mother would be thrilled.
But if a person were to be exacuted and then cremated it would look somewhat like it.
I don't care about cremeation, so long as you verified the executee was actually dead before setting them alight, but execution comes as a punishment intended to reinforce social rules, and the lamb did nothing wrong. Therefore, this is not a just execution. The lamb dindn't even go to Heaven (the infamous No Animals Allowed In Heaven rule), so it's life basically consisted of being born, learning to walk, and not much more than that. Or are you going to argue about Predestination?
It was the Jews and Romans who chose to torture Jesus.>
I'm sorry, what?
This, my friend, is the third chapter of Genesis. The original third chapter, not whatever translation it is you have.
בראשית פרק ג
א וְהַנָּחָשׁ, הָיָה עָרוּם, מִכֹּל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה, אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים; וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה, אַף כִּי-אָמַר אֱלֹהִים, לֹא תֹאכְלוּ מִכֹּל עֵץ הַגָּן. ב וַתֹּאמֶר הָאִשָּׁה, אֶל-הַנָּחָשׁ: מִפְּרִי עֵץ-הַגָּן, נֹאכֵל. ג וּמִפְּרִי הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר בְּתוֹךְ-הַגָּן--אָמַר אֱלֹהִים לֹא תֹאכְלוּ מִמֶּנּוּ, וְלֹא תִגְּעוּ בּוֹ: פֶּן-תְּמֻתוּן. ד וַיֹּאמֶר הַנָּחָשׁ, אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה: לֹא-מוֹת, תְּמֻתוּן. ה כִּי, יֹדֵעַ אֱלֹהִים, כִּי בְּיוֹם אֲכָלְכֶם מִמֶּנּוּ, וְנִפְקְחוּ עֵינֵיכֶם; וִהְיִיתֶם, כֵּאלֹהִים, יֹדְעֵי, טוֹב וָרָע. ו וַתֵּרֶא הָאִשָּׁה כִּי טוֹב הָעֵץ לְמַאֲכָל וְכִי תַאֲוָה-הוּא לָעֵינַיִם, וְנֶחְמָד הָעֵץ לְהַשְׂכִּיל, וַתִּקַּח מִפִּרְיוֹ, וַתֹּאכַל; וַתִּתֵּן גַּם-לְאִישָׁהּ עִמָּהּ, וַיֹּאכַל. ז וַתִּפָּקַחְנָה, עֵינֵי שְׁנֵיהֶם, וַיֵּדְעוּ, כִּי עֵירֻמִּם הֵם; וַיִּתְפְּרוּ עֲלֵה תְאֵנָה, וַיַּעֲשׂוּ לָהֶם חֲגֹרֹת. ח וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶת-קוֹל יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִתְהַלֵּךְ בַּגָּן--לְרוּחַ הַיּוֹם; וַיִּתְחַבֵּא הָאָדָם וְאִשְׁתּוֹ, מִפְּנֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, בְּתוֹךְ, עֵץ הַגָּן. ט וַיִּקְרָא יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, אֶל-הָאָדָם; וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ, אַיֶּכָּה. י וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶת-קֹלְךָ שָׁמַעְתִּי בַּגָּן; וָאִירָא כִּי-עֵירֹם אָנֹכִי, וָאֵחָבֵא. יא וַיֹּאמֶר--מִי הִגִּיד לְךָ, כִּי עֵירֹם אָתָּה; הֲמִן-הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִיךָ לְבִלְתִּי אֲכָל-מִמֶּנּוּ--אָכָלְתָּ. יב וַיֹּאמֶר, הָאָדָם: הָאִשָּׁה אֲשֶׁר נָתַתָּה עִמָּדִי, הִוא נָתְנָה-לִּי מִן-הָעֵץ וָאֹכֵל. יג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לָאִשָּׁה, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂית; וַתֹּאמֶר, הָאִשָּׁה, הַנָּחָשׁ הִשִּׁיאַנִי, וָאֹכֵל. יד וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶל-הַנָּחָשׁ, כִּי עָשִׂיתָ זֹּאת, אָרוּר אַתָּה מִכָּל-הַבְּהֵמָה, וּמִכֹּל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה; עַל-גְּחֹנְךָ תֵלֵךְ, וְעָפָר תֹּאכַל כָּל-יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ. טו וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב. {ס}

טז אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה אָמַר, הַרְבָּה אַרְבֶּה עִצְּבוֹנֵךְ וְהֵרֹנֵךְ--בְּעֶצֶב, תֵּלְדִי בָנִים; וְאֶל-אִישֵׁךְ, תְּשׁוּקָתֵךְ, וְהוּא, יִמְשָׁל-בָּךְ. {ס}

יז וּלְאָדָם אָמַר, כִּי-שָׁמַעְתָּ לְקוֹל אִשְׁתֶּךָ, וַתֹּאכַל מִן-הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִיךָ לֵאמֹר לֹא תֹאכַל מִמֶּנּוּ--אֲרוּרָה הָאֲדָמָה, בַּעֲבוּרֶךָ, בְּעִצָּבוֹן תֹּאכְלֶנָּה, כֹּל יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ. יח וְקוֹץ וְדַרְדַּר, תַּצְמִיחַ לָךְ; וְאָכַלְתָּ, אֶת-עֵשֶׂב הַשָּׂדֶה. יט בְּזֵעַת אַפֶּיךָ, תֹּאכַל לֶחֶם, עַד שׁוּבְךָ אֶל-הָאֲדָמָה, כִּי מִמֶּנָּה לֻקָּחְתָּ: כִּי-עָפָר אַתָּה, וְאֶל-עָפָר תָּשׁוּב.
כ וַיִּקְרָא הָאָדָם שֵׁם אִשְׁתּוֹ, חַוָּה: כִּי הִוא הָיְתָה, אֵם כָּל-חָי. כא וַיַּעַשׂ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לְאָדָם וּלְאִשְׁתּוֹ, כָּתְנוֹת עוֹר--וַיַּלְבִּשֵׁם. {פ}

כב וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, הֵן הָאָדָם הָיָה כְּאַחַד מִמֶּנּוּ, לָדַעַת, טוֹב וָרָע; וְעַתָּה פֶּן-יִשְׁלַח יָדוֹ, וְלָקַח גַּם מֵעֵץ הַחַיִּים, וְאָכַל, וָחַי לְעֹלָם. כג וַיְשַׁלְּחֵהוּ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִגַּן-עֵדֶן--לַעֲבֹד, אֶת-הָאֲדָמָה, אֲשֶׁר לֻקַּח, מִשָּׁם. כד וַיְגָרֶשׁ, אֶת-הָאָדָם; וַיַּשְׁכֵּן מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן-עֵדֶן אֶת-הַכְּרֻבִים, וְאֵת לַהַט הַחֶרֶב הַמִּתְהַפֶּכֶת, לִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-דֶּרֶךְ עֵץ הַחַיִּים. {ס}
The green parts are the punishment God gives Adam and Eve for uncovering his lie.

טז אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה אָמַר, הַרְבָּה אַרְבֶּה עִצְּבוֹנֵךְ וְהֵרֹנֵךְ--בְּעֶצֶב, תֵּלְדִי בָנִים; וְאֶל-אִישֵׁךְ, תְּשׁוּקָתֵךְ, וְהוּא, יִמְשָׁל-בָּךְ. {ס}

יז וּלְאָדָם אָמַר, כִּי-שָׁמַעְתָּ לְקוֹל אִשְׁתֶּךָ, וַתֹּאכַל מִן-הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִיךָ לֵאמֹר לֹא תֹאכַל מִמֶּנּוּ--אֲרוּרָה הָאֲדָמָה, בַּעֲבוּרֶךָ, בְּעִצָּבוֹן תֹּאכְלֶנָּה, כֹּל יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ. יח וְקוֹץ וְדַרְדַּר, תַּצְמִיחַ לָךְ; וְאָכַלְתָּ, אֶת-עֵשֶׂב הַשָּׂדֶה. יט בְּזֵעַת אַפֶּיךָ, תֹּאכַל לֶחֶם, עַד שׁוּבְךָ אֶל-הָאֲדָמָה
To the woman he said, a lot I shall magnify your sadness and your pregnancy- in sadness you shall bear sons; and you shall lust [/crave] your husband and he shall govern you;
And to Adam he said, because you listened to the voice of your wife, and ate from the tree, which I commanded you by saying you shall not eat from it- damned is the earth for you, in sadness you shall eat [from] it, all the days of your life. And spines and thorns it shall grow for you, and you shall eat the grass of the fields. With the sweat of your nose you shall eat bread, untill you return to the ground, for you are dirt and to dirt you shall return.

Do not tell me that this isn't a form of torture. Over a third of all women died from birth complications a few centuries ago. Giving birth is torture, point blank. Which is odd, considering most mammals do it, and they didn't eat any wisdom-possessed apple, since they're all soulless machines created for our comfort, despite the fact that most aspects of the world to not abide with our deffinitions of comfort at all, but that is because the supreme ruler of all things likes us best. Right?
<God does not want to send anyone to Hell,
Who's forcing him?
however he does want to send our sin (the bad things that we have done) to Hell.
Which makes no sense, since sins are actions which people do.
The reason that people go to Hell is because they hold on so tightly to their sins.>
What in the world...?
Let me get this straight. Are you impliying that
Do you mean to s
Do gays have no right to be born
If I were to
No use. Just no use. There is no way I can phrase this that doesn't sound utterly illogical.
Consider this: If the ability to repent for bad stuff you did is more-or-less the point here, and repenting for a sin wipes it clean, then technically a sinner who repents is not a sinner at all. Why the heck, then, is there no repentance option in Hell? It makes no sense at all. In theory, if God wants everyone in Heaven, and Hell exists because they are unfit to go there because of sins, which are of forgivable nature, then why not jettison souls to Heaven once they've payed for their evil deeds or whatever? Oh, right, it doesn't make half as good a threat as 'eternal damnation'. Do something bad once, be punished forever with no ability to change your condition, while God wants to help you, but can't really be bothered to do something about it, because hey, you didn't listen to rules written thousands of years ago and made a questionable amount of sense even then. It's only fair.
I need to calm down.
<Lets pretend that every day you smoke cigarettes,
OH HELL NOT AGAIN. This is the last time I'm putting up with this, TM. I know you mean well, but this is the last. Analogy. I. Am. Willing. To. Subject. Myself. To. Ever. Again. If they keep coming, I may feel bad about it, but I will ignore them completely. Enough.
maybe you only have one a day, or maybe you smoke a pack or two a day.
Okay, then, I'll play along. Just this once.
*clears throat* Hmm, a whole pack? That'd make me a pretty heavy addict.
The point is that you smoke these cigarettes and you know that they are bad for you and they make you unhealthy
Cognitively? Yeah, sure. But not emotionally. And most deffinitley not physically. Nicotine addiction. If we were to applly the Freudian Iceberg model, the Id would be the body, who wants to smoke because of the instant gratification, the Ego would be your emotions, which would consist of mixed feelings- namely guilt or worry- and the pleasure I assume smokers associate with inhaling tobacco fumes, and the Superego would by your concioence reprimanding you for how bad it is for you and all that jazz.
and someday they will kill you.
Possibly, but never underestimate the possibility of dying at any given second with no warning whatsoever. You could smoke thrity years, feel absolutely fantastic, and suddenly BAM!, you get hit by a bus. I should probably bring some more romanticized version of this, but it's 04:49 AM and I'm not thinking clearly.
So you try to stop, but you can't.>
Okay, both mental and physical addiction, then.
<I am not the one who is sending you to an early grave, I am just the one telling you about it.>
Who are you representing in this story?
<Now lets pretend
Aww, man.
that I could somehow transfer all the unhealthy side effects of smoking out of your body and into mine.
...c'mon, you're playing the Jesus card on me? Really?
Lets say that I told every person in the world that I would take all that bad stuff out of their bodies and put it into mine, but in return I asked you to quit smoking and I gave you an accountability partner (the Holy Spirit) to help you quit.>
I'd laugh my head off for about twenty minutes, then ask you for a serious amount of proof. Scientific proof. And also a motive analysis, such as 'Why the heck would you want to do that?'
<You can choose to take the deal or not, but if enough people take it then it will kill me.>
Why not ask you to come over to a nice lab, get a bunch of people to try and understand where this power of yours is coming from, synthesize it and get to be both very, very noble annd very, very rich at the same time?
<Jesus is saying that he will take my sin from me so that it does not kill me.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but you've been ripped off. You will die eventually. Sorry.
I have given him my sin so that I can get into Heaven,
How considerate of you... Sorry, but it seems like the one of the most selfish moves in the history of the world.
however there are some people who are reading this who have not given their sin to Jesus
He never asked me to. In theory, I'm doing him a favor here. I'm helping him suffer less. Even if he was a Jew, and dies long before I was born, so technically his martyr blessing or whatever should apply to me by birth, just like the first sin (which, apparantly, was catching God lying in your face and making him look bad).
and they will be pulled to Hell when they die.>
Why should Hindus be pulled to Hell? Either Jesus left his mertyr blessing to humanity as a whole, or he did not, but I'm sure you realize that Christianity (the interprentations of Jesus's actions, with a lot of perks of the side) didn't exist by then. In fact, the New Testament itself was written long after Jesus had died, so there's no proof any so-called Jesus quote is actually true.
<To put it another way,
Yes, please!
the olympics just started,
...damn.
what if everyone reading these words were to join in a swiming race, but each of us has a back pack on that has as much mass as a 10 year old.>
Does 'ten year old' matter? I suspect I'm getting lost in your convulted analogies...
<Now if we each have a pack on then the race is fair,
No it's not. Why carry the backpacks? Who's forcing us? Did we train with them? Did we know about it beforehand? Is it in our contract? Is it even legal? Where's the rulebook?
but the packs are so heavy that they weight us down and we all dround.
There's always the option of, you know, taking them off. Or refusing to dive in with them in the first place.
Oh, and just to be nitpicky, the Olympics are packed with paramedics of every kind, so I doubt anyone would drown.
However before the race starts a man comes up and says that he has a key that will unlock out back pack and let us take it off before the race.>
Oh good, the janitor is here. What took him so long? And why didn't we all just forefit anyways?
<If I give that man my back pack then it will not weigh me down and I can make it to the finnish line.
No, that'd give you an unfair advantage, and you'd be disqualified.
Even better, once I get there I will be able to climb out of the pool.>
Oh, so now the pool's suddenly a bad thing? First it was the place most loved and most dwelled in, and possibly the scource of great fortune and glory and whatnot, and now suddenly it's representing out punny Earthly lives?
<On the other hand some people hold on to their bags
?!
because they like what is inside them.
...You're kidding me, right?
WHY DON'T THEY JUST LEAVE IT AT THE EDGE OF THE EFFING POOL AND TAKE IT BACK AFTER THE BLEEPING OLYMPICS, THE GREATEST MOMENT OF THEIR ENTIRE LIVES WHICH THEY HAVE SPENT YEARS OF EFFORT TRAINING FOR?
How can someone even see the inside of a backpack that's MAGICALLY LOCKED AND STRAPPED TO THEIR BACKS? Why would they want that stuff if their life's ambition is to win the Olympics, in the midst of which they are STANDING?
Those people do not win the race in time and dround.>
Gee, really. I think I lost the ability to be surprised around 'magically locked'. I mean, I don't know if this is a good analogy or a terrible one, but it sure managed to get me worked up.

Ooh, check it out, the sunrise. Meh, white night. ><
<Or what if it was a hike
Okay, that's it. I've had it up to here with your analogies. Unless there's something really important about this one, I'm not bothering to respond to it.
and the bags are full of sweets that taste very good, but are not good for you. Christians listen to the guide and take all the nice tasting but bad for us things out, and keep the good tasting and good for us stuff in our bags, and we have more energy to go the distence.>
<Mean while the fat kid with a bag full of cup cakes can not make it up the mountan and by the time he does make it back to camp the bus left without him (because camp is over and we need to get these other campers home) and we all hope that the park rangers will find him before the mountain lions do.>
...*profanity*
That is so wrong on so many levels. I... honestly can't comment on that now. later. When I'm a little more emotionally stable.
<Sorry if I took too long to say that, I am hoping that at least part of that will make sence to everyone who reads that. The point is that Jesus died to send our sin to Hell without us and anyone who does go to Hell does so because they will not let go of their sin. Also God did not NEED for Jesus to be tortured, but humans chose to torture him because they could.>
This has absolutely nothing to do with any of the examples you threw out way, but fine, I'm too tired to bash that argument up right now. I'll save that for later.

If this post get's deleted again, I will go into a fit of rage and possibly murder someone. Universe, you have been warned.
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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Current » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:42 pm

Wow. TM's drove Luna into half-baked Christian analogy overload.

Take a deep breath, now, and hug something fluffy. It usually works for me.

(Or you could embrace misanthropy and laugh at the follies of humankind while viewing them with cold hatred and/or indifference, whichever suits you best. But it isn't the best path)
What is not the answer to this question?

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Tobias_Marco » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:55 pm

Luna May wrote:Please, no more analogies, they drive me nuts!
<Sorry, I will try to do better.>
Luna May wrote:Didn't you say that God can be held responsible for everything that ever was, is or will be ever?
<What I was trying to say was that God MADE everything that has ever been made, or more acuretly, nothing has been made that did not have his help in the matter.>
<How many things are there in the world that are not used as they were first intended?>
<I know that there have been many times when I have said something and someone told me that what I said "sounded dirty" this was not because I wanted it to be "dirty" but because they used my words in the wrong way.>
<Sorry, that was an analogy, at least I kept it short.>
Luna May wrote:Yup, nothing satisfies a superpowerful deity better than the smell of charred vestiges of an infant sheep's flesh drifting in the dusty Mediterranian breeze. In fact, it was such common knowledge, that every religion with an ounce of self-respect seemed to be doing it. Pointless death was always quite fashionable. That's probably why avery singe civilization I can think of exercized it at some point.
<From your and my view these deaths may seem pointless, but could it be that this was done to show that every thing has consequences? If you do bad things then it will cost you something.>

<I should also point out that the mothers of these lambs were not able to watch what happened to their babies as Luna's post seemed to imply, also it is fairly common knowlege that sheep are very dumb animals. I'm not sure if they would have understode, or even realized what was going on to the ones that disapeared.>
<Do not misunderstand, I am not saying that dumb, stupid PEOPLE have no rights, there is a huge diffrence between a human and a sheep.>
Luna May wrote:but execution comes as a punishment intended to reinforce social rules, and the lamb did nothing wrong. Therefore, this is not a just execution. The lamb dindn't even go to Heaven (the infamous No Animals Allowed In Heaven rule), so it's life basically consisted of being born, learning to walk, and not much more than that.
<First let me say that I have never heard "the infamous No Animals Allowed In Heaven rule" maybe there are animals in Heaven, maybe not. I just do not know.>
<The reason that these lambs were put to death was to teach us that a payment needed to be made for sin. Jesus was coming to pay for that sin, but it would have been a bit of a waste if we humans did not know why he did this.>
<THat is why all those lambs had to die.>

<As for Predestination, I choose not to speak on that at this time, maybe some day. What I can tell you is that the torture Jesus went through was what the humans of that era thought best for a man who said that he was the "King of the Jews">
Luna May wrote:Do not tell me that this isn't a form of torture. Over a third of all women died from birth complications a few centuries ago. Giving birth is torture, point blank. Which is odd, considering most mammals do it, and they didn't eat any wisdom-possessed apple, since they're all soulless machines created for our comfort, despite the fact that most aspects of the world to not abide with our deffinitions of comfort at all, but that is because the supreme ruler of all things likes us best. Right?
<I am no doctor, so I can't be sure, but I think that most animals feel a lot less pain then humans do when they give birth. If that is true then it would support the idea that God increased the pain that human woman feel (maybe it is not the best support possable, but it does support that idea.) Should all woman who give birth feel this much pain because one woman messed up? I do not know. If I were god then it might be diffrent, but I'm not.>
<God does not want to send anyone to Hell,
Who's forcing him?
<If you look at my past posts you will see that it is you who send your self to Hell, not God. God is standing there with some nice gifts for you, but you back away from him and fall right into a pit of doom.>
however he does want to send our sin (the bad things that we have done) to Hell.
Which makes no sence, since sins are actions which people do.
The reason that people go to Hell is because they hold on so tightly to their sins.>
What in the world...?
<I can understand how that could be comfusing.>
<Have you ever heard the story of Jacob Marley?>
<In life, Marley was the business partner of Ebenezer Scrooge. He has been dead seven years by the time the story begins.>
<Sorry for the story, some of the greatest thinkers of all time have used examples like these and I tryed to learn from the best.>
<This is the only way I know to illistrate this one point.>

<The point is that when Jacob Marley's gost shows up at Scrooge's home he has chains binding him. These chains are made of his greed and selfishness.>
<The same idea is in Christianity, the bad things that you have done in life bind you to Hell, Jesus is the key to removing those chains, but only if you let him.>
Do gays have no right to be born?
<It is my view, that each of us has a choise in this matter, as such, nobody is "born gay". Before you rise up agenst me for saying that let me point out that I know at least 3 people who have told me that they are gay or bi, and I treat them just the same way that I would if they had never told me that. However if they ever ask me about my thoughts on such things I will tell it to them as I see it.>
Consider this: If the ability to repent for bad stuff you did is more-or-less the point here, and repenting for a sin wipes it clean, then technically a sinner who repents is not a sinner at all. Why the heck, then, is there no repentance option in Hell? It makes no sense at all. In theory, if God wants everyone in Heaven, and Hell exists because they are unfit to go there because of sins, which are of forgivable nature, then why not jettison souls to Heaven once they've payed for their evil deeds or whatever?
<I have been asking this same question ever sence I could understand the consept.>
<The first thing that we need to try to grasp is that we do not understand how bad what we are doing realy is.>
<Is it only cheating if I copy off someone else's test? or does coping home work count as cheating?>
<Many times children have thought that their punishment was unfair, even when all the adults thought that the child was really getting off easy.>
<Ok, so that would be unfair, but in this case it is in the child's intrest.>
<What it comes down to is the question, "Can it be too late to change your mind?">
<If you are offered something, but you wait too long then you can not have it any more.>
<I am not god, nor do I wish to be. I did not make the rules, nor do I clamb to know the reason for every one of them.>
<I just report what I know.>
while God wants to help you, but can't really be bothered to do something about it, because hey, you didn't listen to rules written thousands of years ago and made a questionable amount of sense even then. It's only fair.
<That's right, God could not be bothered with it. That is why he threw off his godhood, took on human form for about 30 years and then died the most painful death possable. Cus he just did not give a rat's butt about what happened to you or your soul.>
I'd laugh my head off for about twenty minutes, then ask you for a serious amount of proof. Scientific proof. And also a motive analysis, such as 'Why the heck would you want to do that?'
<You want to know his motive? Because God loves you and wants you to be safe, happy and healthy.>
<Jesus is saying that he will take my sin from me so that it does not kill me.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but you've been ripped off. You will die eventually. Sorry.
I have given him my sin so that I can get into Heaven,
<I am trying to talk about a spiritual life and death, not a physical one.>
<The key here is that I believe that everyone has a soul, and it is what happens to that soul that I care about. The world can do whatever it wants to my body, it is my soul that will be taken care off.>
How considerate of you... Sorry, but it seems like the one of the most selfish moves in the history of the world.
<Now I'm the one who is confused. Jesus gave up everything so that he could spend time with you. How is that selfish?>
however there are some people who are reading this who have not given their sin to Jesus
He never asked me to. In theory, I'm doing him a favor here. I'm helping him suffer less. [/quote]

<Actually he did ask you to, and he asked me to remind you of this.>
<I feel like quoting the bible verse, however something tells me that this isn't the right time for it.>

<When you run from God you run toward your own destruction, God sees you as very valuable, and as such he wants to save you. But he gave you free will, if he saves those that do not want to be saved then he is stealing their free will from them.>
Even if he was a Jew, and dies long before I was born, so technically his martyr blessing or whatever should apply to me by birth, just like the first sin.
<Just like I said above, if God saves those that do not want to be saved then he is stealing their free will. A loving and just God is not likely to steal is he?>
<There is a word for rulers who steal free will, they are called tyrants.>
In fact, the New Testament itself was written long after Jesus had died, so there's no proof any so-called Jesus quote is actually true.
<As I pointed out in the area about God's promises, Jesus died at about 33 AD, Matthew was probably written between AD 60 and 65, Mark was probably written between AD 55 and 65, Luke was probably written about AD 60, John was probably written between AD 85 and 90.>
<That puts the 4 gosples at being writen from 55AD to 90 AD, or 22 years to 57 years after Jesus death. All during this time the men who wrote these books were running around telling the good news of Jesus Christ, and at the same time running from people who tryed to kill them.>
<All other books of the New Testament tell of what happened to these men as they were spreading this good news and what they told people about God's will.>
<Even with that in mind it was all finnished before 95AD, or 102 years after Jesus death. True, that is a long time, but it is a lot less then any other holy book, that I know of, out there.>

<I'm sorry for all the stories, I thought they would make it easyer for some people to understand. It seems that I was wrong. In the story about the people with the back packs, the back packs that pull people down are repersenting the wrong things we have do and how this evil pulls us to our spiritual deaths, by "spiritual deaths" I mean that we spend forever in Hell.>
<I am sorry if any of this made it harder to understand.>
but the packs are so heavy that they weight us down and we all dround.
There's always the option of, you know, taking them off. Or refusing to dive in with them in the first place.

<Good point. If you take them off then you are handing them to Jesus, if you never put them on in the first place, then you are living a perfect life. You never lie, steal, cheat, or break any laws of any kind.>

<The pool was going to be a life of pain and hardship, getting out of the pool was going to mean an easy after life.>
Oh, so now the pool's suddenly a bad thing? First it was the place most loved and most dwelled in, and possibly the scource of great fortune and glory and whatnot, and now suddenly it's representing out punny Earthly lives.
<You will also notice that when the swimmer is done he always gets out of the pool BEFORE they give him or her their prize.>

<Ok, it is clear that story time was lost on Luna, I sure hope that it helped someone out there.>
?<On the other hand some people hold on to their bags
?!
because they like what is inside them.
<This part was to point out that very often doing bad things can feel great at the time. I have done many wrong things in my life. They all felt great when I was doing them, but then I had to suffer for what I had done wrong.>
<Who here likes doing something that they know they sould not do? Each of those things was one of the things in the bag.>
WHY DON'T THEY JUST LEAVE IT AT THE EDGE OF THE EFFING POOL
<Have you ever tryed doing something wrong when you were dead?>
<The whole point was that the pool was life, drounding in the pool was going to Hell, pulling yourself out and winning a prize was going to Heaven.>
<Sorry if I took too long to say that, I am hoping that at least part of that will make sence to everyone who reads that. The point is that Jesus died to send our sin to Hell without us and anyone who does go to Hell does so because they will not let go of their sin. Also God did not NEED for Jesus to be tortured, but humans chose to torture him because they could.>
This has absolutely nothing to do with any of the examples you threw our way, but fine, I'm too tired to bash that argument up right now. I'll save that for later.
<Well Luna I am sorry my stories did not help you. I hope that now you can see how each of these stories did relate to my main point.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by quantumphotonkid » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:59 pm

Arguments from analogy eh? We can play that game too.

I've never seen God. I've also never seen unicorns. Thus God is like a unicorn.

Unicorns don't exist. They're silly imaginary creatures.

Thus, like unicorns, God does not exist. He's a silly imaginary creature.

:P

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Luna May » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:23 am

Blitz-log-on to point out that I did understand your analogy, I was just poking holes in it to demonstrate why I find it flimsy.
Also, Hi Quantumphotonkid, welcome to the AFF. :D
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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Wild Cowboy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:43 am

Luna May wrote:
"They cut out most of the stuff they didn't think little kids should see, such as the story of Dina"

<I don't seem to recall that one at the moment. Could you remind me what happened?>

<As for cutting the lambs neck open, lets look at it from the sheep's point of veiw.>
<If you knew that you had to die, but it could only be from a way that they could kill you back then.>
<How would you want to die?>
<Cutting the neck may not be painless, but it was one of the more painless ways they had.>
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. (Matthew 11:28-30)

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Luna May » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:53 am

Sheep don't know they're about to die. They're SHEEP.
In fact, doesn't Christian theology say that animals are soulless, mindless machines with no place in Heaven (even theough they cannot sin and should therefore be jettisoned there by default)?
And not dying sounds mighty attractive to me, in whatever incarnation I happen to be in. Having horns on my forehead wouldn't change that.

The story of Dina, in the abbreviated version, consists of a brief tale of rape, family honor, deceit, bloody vengance and a nice dose of justified murder.
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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by The_Brigadier » Mon May 30, 2011 3:07 pm

Woah! You guys went way off topic!

So, yeah! How 'bout that reincarnation?

Okay seriously I'm going to tell you all two stories, but I cannot validifiy if they're true or not

Story I:
There's a little boy who has a great fascination with planes. The boy also nightmares about dying in plane crashes. Someone suggested that the boy may have been a reincarnted a pilot. His parents doubted that but they began to realize that the reincarnation story might actually be true. In a a home movie, it shows the little boy looking over an actual plane and performing a pre-flight check. In another instance, the mother got her son a toy plane and pointed to a piece that looked like a bomb. "That's a bomb," she said. "No," answered her son, "that's a drop tank." Never in their lives have either of parents ever heard of a drop tank. Eventually the parents began to listen to the boy'a nightmares. From what they gathered, the past life of their son was named James Houston Jr. Houston was a WWII fighter pilot who died in 1944 in a plane crash, fighting the Japanese. The people who once knew Pilot Houston said that boy was alot like him.
source: http://lotusborn.wordpress.com/2007/11/ ... er-part-i/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Story II
There once was a woman who got in a terrible accident and died. When she woke up, she was in a horrible place. All the trees and plants were dead husks, there were lakes of blood everywhere, but worst of all were the peopole who were in that horrible place. They were constantly crying, they were mutilated, they were in terrible pain. The woman knew that she had to get out of that olace so she went around walking until she found a door. She to it and opened it. When she passed through, God spoke to her. The LORD said to her, "You are very lucky. If you were to die permanently today, that place behind us is where you would have gone. However, you will live and you have a chance of changing your fate." Then the woman woke up. Now she lives her entire life for God.
source: Friend of mine.

In the end, I don't which to believe, so when I die, I'll just roll with the punches.
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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Tobias_Marco » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:35 am

<I was looking for something else when I saw this, but I will share my views on it anyway.>
<At the end of time we are told that God will remake the old Earth and put a New Earth in its place.>
<This is not to say that God made a mistake when he created the first one, it is like getting a new car. The car works great at first but after you drive it into a few thousand trees it doesn't run so good any more.>
<For this reason God will build a New Heaven and a New Earth.>
<We are even told how big the capital city is.>
<It is large enough to fit every human who has ever been born, with room to spare.>
<I see no reason that animals would not be allowed into this New Earth.>
<True, they don't have souls, but God put them into this world the first time he made it and he said that it was all good.>

<Getting back to people being reincarnated, as I understand it when I die I will move on to a new plane of existence or if I still have things I need to learn, then I will be reincarnated as some other form of life, maybe human, maybe dog, maybe cat, if there are aliens in space then I may come back as an Andalite.>
<As a result of this there are many people alive today who are the reincarnations of famous people who have died.>
<I know at least 3 people who have been told that they are the reincarnation of Cleopatra VII Philopator.>
<Wait a second, hold your horses!>
<How can more then one person be the reincarnation of a given person?>
<If Elvis, Cleopatra and other such people have come back, then they can only be in one body at a time.>
<One reincarnation has to die, BEFORE the next one can be born.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Tobias_Marco » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:31 pm

<It has been almost two years, and nobody has responded, however I feel like saying more on this topic.>
<I just found this video on youtube.>
The Boy Who Lived Before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFHWb7IuPno

<This video actually looks at two little boys who both say that they have memories of a part life.>
<One of the boys says that he lived on a small island on the other side of the world and the other believes that he is his own grandfather who died about a year before he was born.>

<I would like to remind you that before you can be reincarnated you have to have a soul, if the soul does not really exist, than reincarnation is impossible.>

<As anyone who has read posts in the religion area of Animorphsfanforum knows, I am a Christian. The Holy Bible tells us that it is for a person to live once and then face judgement.>
<Yet this video shows some very clear evidence that both of these little boys have accurate memories of their past lives. How can I as a Christian explain that?>
<The answer is demons; When the Lord God Almighty created the Heavens and the Earth he created angels, some of these angels fell and turned away from God. These demons are as old as the world itself (give or take 6 days depending on what day of creation they were made. The Bible isn't clear on this point). A demon who is as old as the world would be assigned a person to try to turn away from God. Imagin an invisible and intangible being who is following you around your whole life trying to find ways to convince you that God isn't real. When you die that demon moves on to someone else, a new person who was just born.>
<Think of what this would mean to the family of these little boys. You don't believe in reincarnation and maybe you never really thought about it, then a demon puts detailed visions of a past life into your son or daughter, you think they are just making it up at first, then you do some research and find out that such a person really did exist and your child knows things about them that your child shouldn't be able to know.>
<Soon you, your spouse, the child and everyone who hears about your story starts to believe in reincarnation. Even people who watch your story on youtube might come to believe due to all the evidence that you present.>
<The Lord God Almighty says that there is no reincarnation, yet you now believe that it is real, so you turn away. Sure, you may not have been a believer in God before now, however now that you have seen this you are even less likely to turn towards him in the future.>
<How many will turn away because of this video, or be harder to turn back because of it?>
<There is no way to know for sure.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20