Past lives and Reincarnation

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Tobias_Marco
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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Tobias_Marco » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:52 pm

Current wrote:
Curious definition. Christian usually means "follower of Christ" or "someone who believes Jesus Christ was the Son of God". Amongst those people, there are conflicting ideas of exactly what you need to do to get into heaven.

<If I am a "follower of Christ" and I believe that "Jesus Christ was the Son of God" and if one of the 10 commandments given to us be God is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." then does that mean that Jesus would not lie? Therefore everything Jesus said must be the truth.

The Bible said:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:13-26)

<In this passage Jesus asks the man "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" This was because even though Jesus is God, he could see into the man's heart and saw that the man thought Jesus was a great teacher, but did not see Jesus as God.>
<Also in this passage Jesus asks the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. This does not mean that EVERYONE needs to do this.>

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24)

<Jesus knew that the rich man had a master, and that master was his wealth. But Jesus said that we can only have one master. This is why I find it distastful when someone says they have two religions and one of them is Christianity.>

<*)))< wrote:
"No. Not to reiterate what Current said, but what you are defining is a very particular branch of Christianity, not all Christians.

For example, I know that Evangelical Christians believe exactly what you said. As a single counter example (there are many, many more) Catholics believe that you have to do more than just believe in Jesus; you also have to be a good and moral person, among other things."

Most people will tell you that Catholics and Christians are two diffrent religions, in fact if you do an internet search on "Anti-Christ" you will find a lot of websites that say that the Catholic church itself is the Anti-Christ, now I don't know if the Catholic church IS the Anti-Christ or not, but what I do know is that the Anti-Christ will fool many.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:18-22)

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

Matthew wrote:
My definition of Christian is someone who says he s a Christian.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

I was reading in the newspaper a few years ago about a man who was arrested for pretending to be a doctor, he was very good at it, and even did surgary on a few people, yet had never gone to med school.
He said he was a doctor, therefore he must be a doctor.
Do you think that if you needed surgary that you would put you life in the hands of a person who has not graduated from med school? It seems that some people did.
When the time comes to let people into Heaven God will not just be letting in people who SAY that they are Christians, or even people that have gone to church 90% of the Sundays (or Saterdays) of the last year.
He will look at your heart.
Every word has a meaning, being a "doctor" means that you have gone to school for many years to learn a given thing. If I really wanted to I could be a Doctor of the Arts, and I would still be a doctor.
In this case we mean a Medical Doctor, and if someone calls themself a "Medical Doctor" you think that they have not only gone to Medical School, but they passed all their classes and goten to wear one of those robes and was handed a piece of paper with their name on it saying that they know everything they need to to open you up and fix whatever is making you sick.
In the case of the man who was pretending to be a doctor, he had not gone to med school at all, or if he had he dropped out.


...the doctor will see you now.
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by <*)))< » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:50 pm

Tobias_Marco wrote:Most people will tell you that Catholics and Christians are two diffrent religions, in fact if you do an internet search on "Anti-Christ" you will find a lot of websites that say that the Catholic church itself is the Anti-Christ, now I don't know if the Catholic church IS the Anti-Christ or not, but what I do know is that the Anti-Christ will fool many.
This is actually an issue of semantics: Catholics are indeed an denomination of Christianity, using Current's definition of a Christian being a "follower of Christ." However, many people (such as TM) commonly use the term "Christian" to mean "non-Catholic Christians," which would make "Christians" and "Catholics" mutually exclusive groups. To make things clear, I will say "Christian" when I mean all followers of Christ (including Catholics) and "non-Catholic Christians" otherwise.

(To go slightly off-topic: There are lots of websites that say God is actually a Flying Spaghetti Monster. But the fact that there are a lot of websites about something is completely irrelevant to whether it's factual or not.)

The reason I chose Catholics specifically in that example is because I know with certainty that what I said is true (that you need to do more than just believe in Jesus). I would guess that some of the various other branches of Christianity have similar stipulations, but I did not comment on those specifically because I am not as well informed (and thus am in no place to be making statements about them without having done any proper research).
Tobias_Marco wrote:<Jesus knew that the rich man had a master, and that master was his wealth. But Jesus said that we can only have one master. This is why I find it distastful when someone says they have two religions and one of them is Christianity.>
You are welcome to believe that, but my friend never said that she had two religions. She is Christian. As in she believes that God and Jesus exist. Is this not Christian to you?
I've changed my mind, I do not think I want to see a Lebtin javelin <*)))<

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Current » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:13 pm

Tobias_Marco wrote:Current wrote:
Curious definition. Christian usually means "follower of Christ" or "someone who believes Jesus Christ was the Son of God". Amongst those people, there are conflicting ideas of exactly what you need to do to get into heaven.

If I am a "follower of Christ" and I believe that "Jesus Christ was the Son of God" and if one of the 10 commandments given to us be God is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." then does that mean that Jesus would not lie? Therefore everything Jesus said must be the truth.
Probably. Have you ever considered the possibility that the Bible, a book written, copied and translated by fallible humans, might not be entirely trustworthy and that some that is quoted as Jesus' words might not have been said by him at all, or it might have been misinterpreted?
What is not the answer to this question?

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Tobias_Marco » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:53 pm

<Studies have shown that of all the books that have been copied and translated into other langages, the Bible is the most acuret. Further more when he was on the cross:
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:30)>
<When Jesus said that it was finished he was saying that everything that needed to happen for all of us humans to get into Heaven was done. The thought that we need to do anything else just takes away from everything that Jesus did that day.>

<If your friend believes that God and Jesus exsist that good for them, however the Bible says that that is not enough. "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble." (James 2:19-20) It is not enough to believe that he exsists. I believe that the Taliban is real, and that there are people who think that they have the right idea, but that does not mean that I will call myself a follower of the Taliban, or that I will call their leader my lord. Just because I believe that someone is real doesn't mean that I am a follower of that person. If your friend believes that God and Jesus are real, AND calls them Lord of their life then that is even better. However:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock." (Matthew 7:21-25)

If you and/or your friend can read these verses and then still say they can call themselves a Christian, even with these needs met, then they are a Christian. If not, then they are being fooled by the Devil, who is called Satan.>
<That is not what I think, that is what the Bible says.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Current » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:32 pm

Tobias_Marco wrote:Studies have shown that of all the books that have been copied and translated into other langages, the Bible is the most acuret.
Care to cite those studies?
Further more when he was on the cross:
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:30)>
Really? I thought this last words were "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46).
<When Jesus said that it was finished he was saying that everything that needed to happen for all of us humans to get into Heaven was done. The thought that we need to do anything else just takes away from everything that Jesus did that day.>
OK, I'm really confused now. Here, you say that we don't need to do anything else. Wouldn't that mean that everyone gets into heaven, since there's nothing they need to do to get there? Or is it that what you do is irrelevant and God chooses people over some arbitrary standard?
What is not the answer to this question?

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Tobias_Marco » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:46 pm

<Believe it or not, I'm going to say that God DOES NOT choose who does or does not get into Heaven.>
<If it were God's choise then everyone would get in.>
<However many people turn their backs on God, and therefore do not get in.>
<What if you found out that two diffrent people are having a party on the same night, and both of them are letting anyone come that wants to. Both of them even go so far as to put an anouncment on the news paper and on TV.>
<However one of these people is the cutest, hotest guy in town, and you thing that the other guy is the world's biggest loser.>
<So you go to the cool guy's party, only once you get their you find out that he is giving all his guests illegal drugs when they walk in the door and by the time you realize this you are already being arrested for posesion of illegal substances.>
<Later you find out that the magor loser who's party you skipped is in fact the richest man in the world, and he just acts like this other guy when he doesn't want people to know that he is rich (think Clark Kent/Superman) and everyone who came to HIS party got a free mansion full of really amazing stuff including a staff of survents.>

<I know, this story seems VERY far feached, but in a way that is what Christianity is like.>
<You believe that this guy is a real person in your town, but you think that he is a loser, so you don't hang out with him very much. This other guy seems cool, but he is heading somewhere you don't want to be, and he is going there much sooner then eather one of you think. The loser is really trying to give you an amazing gift, but if YOU don't CHOOSE to go to his party then you can't get the gifts.>

<In real life you could always choose not to go to eather party, you might want to stay home and read or something. Yes it is friday night and a lot of people are out partying, but you have a test on monday that you really need to study for. Whatever. However in this case there is no third choice. Everybody dies, and when you do you have to get in one of the two cars, is it the one picking you up to go to the house with all the best looking people, or is it the one with all the best acting people.>

<I know, I know. There are a lot of "good people" who are not Christians.>
<Read my post in the religion area about the diffences between Christians and people of other religians to debate that issue.>
True education, true science, true religion is the search for truth.
Matthew 28:16-20, John 3:14-20

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Current » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:29 am

So, in the end you do have to do something. You have to go to the right party, whatever that is supposed to mean in your analogy.
What is not the answer to this question?

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Tobias_Marco » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:43 pm

<In this case it means choosing the correct religion.>

<To set a few things as streght as I can right now, you asked why God would torture his own son. The answer is that God did not.>
<If you read the first 5 books of the Old Testament, you will see what the Jews are to do to sacrifice a lamb. No where in there does it tell them to do anything that would look like torture if done to a human being. True they do kill the lamb and then set it's body on fire. But if a person were to be exacuted and then cremated it would look somewhat like it. It was the Jews and Romans who chose to torture Jesus.>

<God does not want to send anyone to Hell, however he does want to send our sin (the bad things that we have done) to Hell. The reason that people go to Hell is because they hold on so tightly to their sins.>

<Lets pretend that every day you smoke cigarettes, maybe you only have one a day, or maybe you smoke a pack or two a day. The point is that you smoke these cigarettes and you know that they are bad for you and they make you unhealthy and someday they will kill you. So you try to stop, but you can't.>
<I am not the one who is sending you to an early grave, I am just the one telling you about it.>
<Now lets pretend that I could somehow transfer all the unhealthy side effects of smoking out of your body and into mine. Lets say that I told every person in the world that I would take all that bad stuff out of their bodies and put it into mine, but in return I asked you to quit smoking and I gave you an accountability partner (the Holy Spirit) to help you quit.>
<You can choose to take the deal or not, but if enough people take it then it will kill me.>
<Jesus is saying that he will take my sin from me so that it does not kill me. I have given him my sin so that I can get into Heaven, however there are some people who are reading this who have not given their sin to Jesus and they will be pulled to Hell when they die.>

<To put it another way, the olympics just started, what if everyone reading these words were to join in a swiming race, but each of us has a back pack on that has as much mass as a 10 year old.>
<Now if we each have a pack on then the race is fair, but the packs are so heavy that they weight us down and we all dround. However before the race starts a man comes up and says that he has a key that will unlock out back pack and let us take it off before the race.>
<If I give that man my back pack then it will not weigh me down and I can make it to the finnish line. Even better, once I get there I will be able to climb out of the pool.>
<On the other hand some people hold on to their bags because they like what is inside them. Those people do not win the race in time and dround.>

<Or what if it was a hike and the bags are full of sweets that taste very good, but are not good for you. Christians listen to the guide and take all the nice tasting but bad for us things out, and keep the good tasting and good for us stuff in our bags, and we have more energy to go the distence.>
<Mean while the fat kid with a bag full of cup cakes can not make it up the mountan and by the time he does make it back to camp the bus left without him (because camp is over and we need to get these other campers home) and we all hope that the park rangers will find him before the mountain lions do.>

<Sorry if I took too long to say that, I am hoping that at least part of that will make sence to everyone who reads that. The point is that Jesus died to send our sin to Hell without us and anyone who does go to Hell does so because they will not let go of their sin. Also God did not NEED for Jesus to be tortured, but humans chose to torture him because they could.>
Last edited by Tobias_Marco on Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Current » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:48 pm

OK, so you need to accept the right religion. And stop doing the stuff God dislikes, if I get your sin/smoking analogy.
Then my question is, who made the rules of this game? Was it God? If so, then why not make rules that send everyone to heaven? If not, then who did? Or are they just natural aspects of the universe that God cannot change?
What is not the answer to this question?

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Re: Past lives and Reincarnation

Post by Visser 5 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:26 pm

I may not be the most religion minded person here, but I seem to remember someone telling me that god wants everyone to go to Heaven, but when we turn our backs on him, then we turn our backs on Heaven (the place where he is).
So if I am not trying to be closer to god then I am moveing away from him and closer to Hell.
I think it was my grandmother trying to get me to stop hanging out with some of my friends.
SHe said that they were "leading me down the wrong path."
Vote for me! I will fix everything, giving everyone health care, food, a home with high speed internet and a good paying job, & kill everyone who makes more then $1 million per year &give their money to the poorest 10%.