Re: Caption the avatar above you
by Luna May » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:51 am
I just can't get myself to believe there are souls. Or an afterlife, for that matter. I can accept life force, sure, but not as an autonimic force separated from the body. Besides there being no proof, what exactly would this power consist of, once deprived from sensory input, memory, feelings, and all other accomodations the body supplies?
From the other way round, if I accept souls in humans, there is no reason whatsoever to deny other mammals from the same right. And if they have it, why not birds? And then reptiles, amphibians, fish?
Postby Tobias_Marco » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:55 pm
<Ok, lets talk about that for a moment. (Then move this to the religion area)>
<Not being GOD or having reached any significant level of enlightenment I can not tell you for sure how any of this stuff works, however I can do my best.>
<A 'life force' if I read this right is nothing more then the electro-chemical reactions that take place in the brain of a 'living' creature that make it different from a creature that is 'dead'.>
<Scientist say that matter/energy can not be created or destroyed.>
<If this is true then the 'soul' is like an organ made up of pure energy, when a living being that has a soul stops living, and becomes dead, that energy goes away from this Earth, possibly into an 'extra dimension' that exists beyond the 3 of space and one of time that most humans are familiar with.>
"Understanding the relationship between the brain and the mind is a challenging problem both philosophically and scientifically.[82] The most straightforward scientific evidence that there is a strong relationship between the physical brain matter and the mind is the impact physical alterations to the brain have on the mind, such as with traumatic brain injury and psychoactive drug use.[83]
The mind-body problem is one of the central issues in the history of philosophy,[84] which asks us to consider if the brain and the mind are identical, partially distinct, or related in some unknown way. There are three major schools of thought concerning the answer: dualism, materialism, and idealism. Dualism holds that the mind exists independently of the brain;[85] materialism holds that mental phenomena are identical to neuronal phenomena;[86] and idealism holds that only mental phenomena exist.[86]
In addition to the philosophical questions, the relationship between mind and brain involves a high number of scientific questions, including understanding the relationship between mental activity and brain activity, the exact mechanisms by which drugs influence cognition, and the neural correlates of consciousness.
Through most of history many philosophers found it inconceivable that cognition could be implemented by a physical substance such as brain tissue (that is neurons and synapses).[87] Philosophers such as Patricia Churchland posit that the drug-mind interaction is indicative of an intimate connection between the brain and the mind, not that the two are the same entity.[88] Descartes, who thought extensively about mind-brain relationships, found it possible to explain reflexes and other simple behaviors in mechanistic terms, although he did not believe that complex thought, and language in particular, could be explained by reference to the physical brain alone.[89]" -Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
<Perhaps the mind is nothing more then what happens when the brain and the soul interact?>
<It seems to me that ignoring all other input, belief in the soul would almost have to be linked to believe in some form of afterlife. Science has told us of many wonderful things, but most of these things can be broken down to the interactions between protons, electrons, and quarks, by way of gravity, electro-magnatisum and the strong and weak forces (the strong and weak forces only come into play when you are looking at things smaller then a hydrogen atom). To the best of our knowledge we know that none of these sub-atomic particals leave this world when a creature stops being 'alive', therefore there must be some other force or energy that makes up this soul if it is even real.>
<There is a belief that when a person dies they lose 21 grams.>
http://www.articlesbase.com/religion-ar ... 38373.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says:
"Several years ago controversial studies were conducted that weighed people at the moment of death. Ruling out any known physical cause, it was found that people lost 21 grams of weight when they died. Evidence of the existence of a soul? Perhaps, but however one interprets the data from the studies, Scripture makes it clear that people are far more than flesh and bones
. It was of course Jesus who made the statement, “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).
Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/religion-ar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... z0mFGK4Yen
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution"
<Now I do not know for sure if we lose 21 grams when we die, and if we do why that amount, and would that number be less for s smaller person?>
<What I can tell you is this: There are many people who believe in ghost. Some people say that ghosts are the souls of people who have passed on, others say they are demons (fallen angles) who are trying to hurt people, sometimes even by pretending to be the souls of the dead.>
<There is a question for you: If the soul is real, and if when you die you go to some kind of Heaven or some kind of Hell, then what greater way would there be for a demon to hurt you then to trick you into going to Hell when you think that you are going to Heaven?>
<I think it is safe to say that if angles, demons and the soul are all real, then they are all made out of the same stuff. Just as a bear, a crocodile and a Bald Eagle are made of the same stuff.>
Re: Caption the avatar above you
Postby Luna May » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:55 pm
Nice answer, TM. Which means you're getting bombarded by yet more questions.

<Scientist say that matter/energy can not be created or destroyed.>
<If this is true then the 'soul' is like an organ made up of pure energy, when a living being that has a soul stops living, and becomes dead, that energy goes away from this Earth, possibly into an 'extra dimension' that exists beyond the 3 of space and one of time that most humans are familiar with.>
I fail to see a connection between these two statements. Where is the evidence of another dimension at all?
I find it much more plausible that humans are afraid of death, so the looked for a way out to lessen their fear for their loved ones and themselves. 'Heaven\hell' concepts are relatively new when compared to the 'afterlife' concept, which we can see in Egyptian and Greek mythology, and is mostly neutral. I'm guessing that fear proved itself as a great stimulant, because religions were suing it all the time to get what they wanted. Hence 'Serve us and do what we say or be damned for all eternity', and all that.
Which reminds me of something: Say a person dies and goes to heaven. They were good and kind when alive, yes, but their goodness wasn't nothing outstanding. They chanced upon an opportunity to do something big that their religion deems 'good', and were rewarded with heaven. What does this mean?
And the Matrix question, of course: If the person stays the same when in heaven, their faith can detoriate and they an become 'evil'. If it is impossible to feel bad in heaven, then it is essentially an eternal 'Matrix reality' trapping souls for all of eternity, crossing out the concept of free will.
Maybe large parts of the stuff religons are made of is a decpption from God, who'se aiming for an ulterior motive. He's been known to lie before- right at the very beginning, in fact. In the introduction part of the story. "That fruit is mine, eat it and DIE!" *eats and doesn't die* "...How DARE you disobey me!" *munchmunchmunch* "Get out of my house *kick*"
Niiiiiice.
Another thing: Wouldn't this encourage mass suicide from believers, which would be ~bad~ for society and greedy people as one?
Re: Caption the avatar above you
Postby Tobias_Marco » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:15 pm
"Say a person dies and goes to heaven. They were good and kind when alive, yes, but their goodness wasn't nothing outstanding. They chanced upon an opportunity to do something big that their religion deems 'good', and were rewarded with heaven. What does this mean?"
No soul is trapped in Heaven, everyone who goes to Heaven chose to go in the first place, so it is not like they are in prison, plus who would want to leave a place with no rent, no taxes, no sickness and no government officials
We do not stay the same when we get to Heaven, we are purified of all the sicknesses and problems.
Why would their faith deteriorate?
If every day you were given everything you could ever want, would not your faith in the one giving you these things increase?
This is why GOD gives us things on Earth, but only in small amounts, and then in slightly bigger amounts. Each time our faith gets bigger and bigger.
GOD did not lie when he said that we would die if we ate the forbidden fruit, GOD was talking about a spiritual death.
Re: Caption the avatar above you
Postby Luna May » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:37 pm
Surely people wouldn't want to move out of Heaven; I was thinking more in the direction of Eviction, i.e being kicked out because they were changing for the worse- being corrupted of sinful because of Heaven.
Aditionally, say there's a priest somewhere who was always very careful to evady the SDS (Seven Deadly Sins). Suddenly he's in Heaven, and he's allowed to do all that stuff. Wouldn't it have a serious impact on his character?
Oh, and why wouldn't people start sinning when they get to Heaven, seeing as their judgement period (lifetime) is over?
Re: Caption the avatar above you
Postby Tobias_Marco » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:21 pm
Luke 19:1-27
Zacchaeus the Tax Collector
1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." 6So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "
8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'
15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'
17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'
18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'
19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'
20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'
26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Footnotes:
1. Luke 19:13 A mina was about three months' wages.
John 3:1-21
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]
Footnotes:
1. John 3:3 Or born from above; also in verse 7
2. John 3:6 Or but spirit
3. John 3:7 The Greek is plural.
4. John 3:13 Some manuscripts Man, who is in heaven
5. John 3:15 Or believes may have eternal life in him
6. John 3:16 Or his only begotten Son
7. John 3:18 Or God's only begotten Son
8. John 3:21 Some interpreters end the quotation after verse 15.
John 4:1-38
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
4Now he had to go through Samaria. 5So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."
16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17"I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
The Disciples Rejoin Jesus
27Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?"
28Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29"Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?" 30They came out of the town and made their way toward him.
31Meanwhile his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something."
32But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."
33Then his disciples said to each other, "Could someone have brought him food?"
34"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps' is true. 38I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor."
Footnotes:
1. John 4:9 Or do not use dishes Samaritans have used
2. John 4:29 Or Messiah
<I can understand why you would think I might want to kill myself and get to this perfect place sooner, however if I did that then you would not be there. GOD loves people and he wants as many as possable to be with him in Heaven.>
<If I stay just a few more years on Earth then I may be able to convince you to come with me to Heaven, and that would be twice as good as me going without you.>
<What if I told you that there was going to be a party, and everything was going to be great, all the right food and music and everything, but only 3 people would be there.>
<Would you go to that one, or to a party with less food and music and lots of people.>
<GOD has all things ready, he is just asking me to hand out the invites before I go to the party myself.>
<The cupcake is not invisible, however it is inside a tupperwear container.>