Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

[Blu]

<If DNA came about by a natural process as you say, then shouldn't humans be able to recreate it in a lab?>
<If that had happened then whoever did it would have won the Noble Prize.>

A planet forming is a natural process. So according to your logic, planets don't form because scientists haven't been able to make one.

And for your information, scientists CAN creat DNA. All it is is connecting proteins. You probably haven't seen it in the news because the news doesn't tend to put out a story everytime a scientist reacts chemicals. The only thing scientists haven't done is create a WHOLE functional genome. No doubt it will soon happen though.

Oh, and have you seen this:
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/05May/Pages ... n-lab.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Wild Cowboy]

<I think that you are making one of those logical fowl ups here.>
<People have been mixing stuff in little glass jars for years, and that is how you say these first simple cells came into being in the first place, only without the jars.>
<TM is saying that if we are smart enough to know how much of what got mixed up to make those first simple cells, then we should be able to make some in a lab.>
<However building a planet would need a lab the size of a solar systum, and we have yet to build one of those.>
<Please, sometimes I don't even think you guys are even trying.>

[Blu]

<I think that you are making one of those logical fowl ups here.>
<People have been mixing stuff in little glass jars for years, and that is how you say these first simple cells came into being in the first place, only without the jars.>
<TM is saying that if we are smart enough to know how much of what got mixed up to make those first simple cells, then we should be able to make some in a lab.

Look at the link I just posted. The have don it in a lab.

And may I ask you, what is a primitive cell and what does it consist of?

[Visser 5]

And may I ask you, what is a primitive cell and what does it consist of?

That seems to be a very good question, and one that I am suprized that TM or WC haven't asked already.
Unless I just didn't see that part.

They are Christians, so they don't really believe in "primitive cells", that is something that everyone else thinks once was, but now does not.

The idea being that the first cells were not as complex as the ones that we have now days.
Due to them being less complex it was easyer for them to form be seemingly randum chance then the cells we have today.

Something else has been bugging me.

Christians say that "god" created the earth and everything in it in 6 or 7 days, then rested.
All of this happened about 6 to 7 thousand years ago.

Some people will ask then "Then how come we can see stars that are 14.5 billion light years away?"
The Christians will then give one of two answers:
The stars are not 14.5 billion light years away, they are less then 7 thousand light years away, but we are just miscalculating the distances.
or...
God made the light first, and he made it so that the light was already on it's way.

This is why we can see stars that are too far away to see yet.

Upon hearing this most of us will call this "god" a lier.

He or she made the world look to be older then it is, thus making it even harded to prove that he or she really is.

That's not the part that has been bugging me.

If god made the first humans on the last day of creation, then everything was less then a week old.
God put the first man and woman in a garden.

I haven't done a lot of work in a garden, but I do know this:
If you find an emty patch of dirt and plant seeds in it, you can't come back in a week and get food to eat.
Adam and Eve would have been very hungry and not have had anything to eat.

Unless "god" made all the trees and other veges, as well as the animals I would guess, adults.
Maybe god did make the animals grown-up, and with the knowlege that they would need to pass on to their children.

Adam and Eve could have been pre-programed to know how to walk and talk and all that other stuff.
But if that was the case, then how could you prove it?

I'm not saying that the world was created in 6 days or something, just that if it was "god" would have had to make the world seem a little older then a week, in order for the world to be ready for humans to live in it.

[Prod]

If "god" could make an entire Universe in a week, then "god" would probably be able to create fully mature animals/plants/ecosystems.

However I think its very lazy to just say it's "god's intention" that we perceive light 14.5 billion years old because he designed it that way. Why would he bother creating galaxies and solar systems beyond our perception? Why would he bother creating creatures that live in the deepest oceans?

I find it much more likely if there was a god at all, that he just chucked out a bunch of matter and antimatter and see what happened, much like the story of Keys to the Kingdom (fiction). In that series, intended for young teens, everything came from Nothing. From Nothing, came the Architect. It was not explained how the Architect emerged from Nothing, but it happened. The Architect got bored of her lonely existance, so she chucked out a bunch of matter and watched what happened. The Universe happened, and she sat back and watched life take shape from essentially nothing. In the end,

Spoiler:

she grew tired of existence and decided to kill herself. However in order to kill herself, she must destroy her creation, rendering everything she did pointless. While she wanted to end her own existence, she didn't want Nothing to be all there ever was again. She appointed a mortal, her creation, to recreate the Universe in his own image.

.

I think the notion of existing for billions and billions of years with nothing to do to be quite lonely, and can understand wanting a creation such as humans to occupy my time. But, if I DID create them, why would I worry if they worship some other god? I would know how really created them, I gave them free will, they can believe whatever they want. So I don't get credit, what does credit matter? If there is a jealous god, then that god must be a child himself.

So I can also understand a supposed god wanting to

Spoiler:

destroy themself

This is my image of a god if there ever was one.

However, I think the more likely situation is that there is no god, that god is a creation of man. Created to control the weak minded and desperate over the ages. Some master mind slave driver thought to himself "Hey, maybe if the slaves had some hope, they would work harder!". Religion is a tool to control people.

I quite like the spin some tv shows/movies put on religion. Such as Supernatural, where God is a literal father figure, with Lucifer as his bratty spoilt kid throwing a tantrum (the apocalypse). God could step in any time and stop him, but he doesn't. Also the notion shown in Book of Eli, where the local landlord wants a bible to control and "guide" his people. "People will believe whatever I say because it comes from THAT book." You might scoff at me for using fictional works as a standpoint for my views, the same can be said for the Bible. And who knows, in a thousand years or so, Harry Potter might become the new religion, with JK Rowling hailed as the Prophet of the 21st century (Book of Dave).

[Current]

If "god" could make an entire Universe in a week, then "god" would probably be able to create fully mature animals/plants/ecosystems.

However I think its very lazy to just say it's "god's intention" that we perceive light 14.5 billion years old because he designed it that way. Why would he bother creating galaxies and solar systems beyond our perception? Why would he bother creating creatures that live in the deepest oceans?

It's not just lazy, it also makes the whole thing unfalsifiable. If God can and sometimes does make the universe look as though it was god-free, then ultimately, any debate over the existence of God is meaningless.

As for what you mentioned about Keys to the Kingdom, it reminds me to an extent of God's Debris.

[Wild Cowboy]

If "god" could make an entire Universe in a week, then "god" would probably be able to create fully mature animals/plants/ecosystems.

<But you missed her point.>
<We have tryed telling you that God made fully mature animals/plants/ecosystems, but then you folks tell us that our God is lieing about the age of the universe.>
<Just go back and read the last 2 or 3 pages of this topic to see it.>

Why would he bother creating galaxies and solar systems beyond our perception? Why would he bother creating creatures that live in the deepest oceans?

<We can see them now, and we can see just how powerful he really is.>
<God isn't just powerful enough to create a small island in the middle of a vast sea, with a dome sky that a small sun moves around.>
<God is powerful enough to make a universe so huge that there is no way for humans to go from one end of it to the other.>

But, if I DID create them, why would I worry if they worship some other god? I would know how really created them, I gave them free will, they can believe whatever they want. So I don't get credit, what does credit matter? If there is a jealous god, then that god must be a child himself.

<Have you ever made something and seem someone else get the credit?>
<How did that make you feel?>
<Have you ever seen a child say something hopelessly wrong and did everything you could to correct them?>
<That is why God cares about what you believe.>

<Also, God's Debris is a very good read, it has been a few years, but I remember likeing it.>
<That is not to say that any beliefs should be based on what you find in God's Debris.>

[Blu]

Why would he bother creating galaxies and solar systems beyond our perception? Why would he bother creating creatures that live in the deepest oceans?

<We can see them now, and we can see just how powerful he really is.>
<God isn't just powerful enough to create a small island in the middle of a vast sea, with a dome sky that a small sun moves around.>
<God is powerful enough to make a universe so huge that there is no way for humans to go from one end of it to the other.>

Does that not mean that God is simply egotistical? Why else must he show such needless power? Why then must he create supernova? Destroyed galaxies? Why has he put water elsewhere in the universe?

Is God just showing off? Why would he need to?

But, if I DID create them, why would I worry if they worship some other god? I would know how really created them, I gave them free will, they can believe whatever they want. So I don't get credit, what does credit matter? If there is a jealous god, then that god must be a child himself.

<Have you ever made something and seem someone else get the credit?>
<How did that make you feel?>
<Have you ever seen a child say something hopelessly wrong and did everything you could to correct them?>
<That is why God cares about what you believe.>

So he punishes them for eternity. Seems fair, no?

If he was so upset about it, shouldn't he just show himself? Perhaps he could show us another miracle, like a man walking on water.

Of course, that is absurd. Miracles in the bible were like water turning to wine, but ever since the bible appeared, these miracles have been downsized to apparant pictures of Jesus on a slice of toast.



I ask you, since I haven't yet received an answer from the others: Are finite crimes deserving of infinite punishment?

[Luna May]

<But you missed her point.>
<We have tryed telling you that God made fully mature animals/plants/ecosystems, but then you folks tell us that our God is lieing about the age of the universe.>
<Just go back and read the last 2 or 3 pages of this topic to see it.>

But it's the exact same concept; either things are the way the seem according to all physical evidence, or else they have been supernaturally manipulated in a way that cannot be proved even while contradicting said physical evidence.

<We can see them now, and we can see just how powerful he really is.>
<God isn't just powerful enough to create a small island in the middle of a vast sea, with a dome sky that a small sun moves around.>
<God is powerful enough to make a universe so huge that there is no way for humans to go from one end of it to the other.>

So, what are you saying here?...
I'm unable of wrapping my mind around the terribly arrogant notion of 'This whole realm of existence came into being just for me'. It seems so conceited and absurd, not to mention delusional and even slightly demented. How egocentrical can someone be? It doesn't become okay just because it's God doing it. Creating tons of useless stuff only so that we can some day tell him how awesome he is for it? Seems like the guy has some serious self-esteem issues. I won't even mention the closer-to-home implications this has on our planet (specifically, our fauna and flora).

<Have you ever made something and seem someone else get the credit?>
<How did that make you feel?>
<Have you ever seen a child say something hopelessly wrong and did everything you could to correct them?>
<That is why God cares about what you believe.>

That is so messed up.

I'll second everything Blu has said so far. I wouldn't want to dedicate my life to showing sycophancy and obsequiousness to such an haughty jerk anyways.*


*No offence.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it a little too strongly. My apologies.

[Current]

<Have you ever made something and seem someone else get the credit?>
<How did that make you feel?>

Depends on what exactly, but it's irrelevant. Humans, being limited being and whatever, could understandably be upset when not credited for their work. God, however? One would think the creator of the universe would be above such base emotions. Especially considering he declared Pride and Envy sins. They made 'em homunculi in FMA and all.

<Have you ever seen a child say something hopelessly wrong and did everything you could to correct them?>
<That is why God cares about what you believe.>

But God doesn't do everything to correct us. I mean, right now, he could appear in front of me and tell me "Hey, by the way, I created the universe. If you don't quite get it, ask away!"
It would cost him zero effort to do so. Yet he does not. He builds a universe where physical evidence point to it being older than his book claims, refuses to explain why it seems that way, doesn't clarify the multiple doubts humanity's had, etc. That is certainly not doing everything to correct us.

<Also, God's Debris is a very good read, it has been a few years, but I remember likeing it.>
<That is not to say that any beliefs should be based on what you find in God's Debris.>

Well, of course. Interesting though it is, the author has stated quite clearly it's just philosotainment.